Stephen: This is your host, Stephen Sargeant. We have the best episode that I think we've recorded so far this year. We have Debbie soon. She's an entrepreneur. She's a recent author. She's an investor. She worked with Randy Zuckerberg at Hug, where they created a marketplace for our diverse set of both physical and digital artists.

This is such a great episode for those that are trying to get into Web3 and crypto. She gives us her origin story working for one championship, the UFC of Asia, as I've called it, and also working early stages working for finance firms. Owning her own cycling salon. This is just a crazy episode that talks so much about what entrepreneurship is following your passion, going different routes in business, taking leap, taking risks, you know, exiting her company.

We cover the whole gambit and she's gonna teach you how the best ways that you can strategically get into crypto and Web3. By sharing some of the best conversations she's had with people like Matt Mede and others from NFT Now, Randy Zuckerberg, Jesse Pollock. This is jam packed with just a good energy.

She's an amazing professional and I can't wait for you guys to listen to this episode.  

This is your host, Stephen Sargeant. This is a, I think what is gonna be a special episode for the Around the Coin podcast. We don't get to meet too many people that are entrepreneurs, investors, authors. We're actually deep in the NFT world and, you know, really diverse use cases. And Debbie Soon we have you on the podcast.

You're launching your new book coming out. But more importantly, we're gonna go all the way down the gambit from the early days to where you are now. I think you have such a storied career and an amazing career. So why don't just introduce yourself to our amazing tech focused audience.

Debbie: Oh, well first of all, thank you so much for having me, Stephen. It's a pleasure to be here on Around The Coin Podcast. My name is Debbie. I am Singapore, born and raised. Uh, It's a huge part of my identity. Moved to the US about four years ago.

But yeah, I guess have had quite a diverse, or like interesting career, if you can say, had it started off in traditional finance.

Ran a side hustle, which involved running an indoor cycling studio before moving into the world of live sports and MMA and I guess when Covid happened, that really opened the doors for me to, you know, chart my own path. And that's kind of how I ended up in the, in the Web3 or the blockchain space. But I'm sure we'll dive into all of that.

Stephen: Yeah, I am gonna start right back at the beginning. Talk to me about like, you know, you have an engineering background, the economics background. What was like that dream career when you were like first applying for school? What was like that job that you had in mind that you're like, oh, I'm gonna be this when I grow up as soon as I'm done these four or five years?

Debbie: Yeah, no. So honestly, so growing up in Singapore is really interesting. There is a program basically, or several government affiliated companies, or the government itself has this scholarship program where they would essentially offer to pay your way through college. So four years of college, but in return you have to come back and work for them for six years.

So it is I mean, it is a great deal. Like I basically didn't have to pay a single cent on for college. But I think it's pretty challenging trying to make a decision for the next 10 years of your life when you're 18 years old. So in reality, I think when I was 18, I actually wanted to work for the foreign service.

So I wanted to, I don't know, I had dreams of becoming like an ambassador and everything, and I would say the irony that I did actually get offered that scholarship. And then I also got offered a scholarship by the Singapore Sovereign Wealth Fund. And I guess there was something in me that, that felt. You know, I'm a very results driven person and I like to see results quickly.

And finance kind of seems to be a little bit more my jam versus policy work. So ended up kind of going that direction entering the world of finance. But I will say that the primary motivation for me, and, and well thank goodness I already got the scholarship and already graduated, but I would say that the primary motivation for me was, is honestly I wanted to leave Singapore and pursue a college education overseas.

You know, Singapore is extremely developed now. Everyone has great things to say about it. I have great things to say about it, but it has changed a lot in the last 20 years. So, growing up, like it always felt just so small and it felt so narrow-minded. And, you know, all I really wanted to do was to, you know, get a college education overseas and see what you know, what that opened up for me.

Stephen: You saw all those spring break videos on the internet, you're like, yo, this looks like a lot of fun partying in the US and abroad. I'm curious though, when you think about like, I can't imagine you working in traditional finance because like you seems like such a creative person, so I can only imagine the meetings and the hustle and, you know, talk to me about that.

Was it a challenge or were you well suited after going through school that you could, you liked the structure and you'd like to do your creative side hustles as you were talking about?

Debbie: Yeah, no, I mean I think like, you know, and obviously finance is actually a pretty broad industry, so I like to say that even within the world of finance, I ended up going down the path, which to me felt like the most interesting, like I felt the least financey bit of finance. I was an equity portfolio manager, so I really spent most of my days looking at different companies which I think was really what got me interested in entrepreneurship in the first place.

You know, like I had a really great coverage. I was cons covering consumer and consumer tech companies. So. The companies in my coverage were really the cool companies, like the Nikes of the world. I got to attend a Nike Investor Day in Portland. I met Kobe Bryant before he passed. You know, I also was covering quick service restaurants like McDonald's or like KFC.

So I went to China and tried amazing fried chicken and China. So, you know, I felt like I got the kind of like, the good end of the stick or whatever people may think about finance and I really did enjoy it. But I think the bit that kind of always gave me a little bit of an imposter syndrome as an investor was that here I am, like, you know, looking at all of these reports, building all of these financial models, trying to, you know, come across as being.

So much more informed than the management team that I'm speaking to. And at the same time had never really run a business. Like, so who am I really to say that this is a better pricing strategy versus not? Obviously I could come at it from like an academic standpoint, but I think I always felt like, oh, you know, it would be way more fun to be actually involved in making these decisions and building those businesses.

And, and I think that's why like, I kind of, you know, I was so young, I was like 10 years ago, just decided I'm going to found a business of my own to really see what I can take from that. And, you know, at the time I really didn't know what I didn't know. But it was a great learning experience for me.

Stephen: I love that. I love that. How about, you know, did you know about cryptocurrency? 'cause you were in finance from like 2011, I believe, to 2018. Did you hear like you're speaking to founders, tech founders are usually, you know, they have their, their ear to the pulse of what's going on in the industry. Did cryptocurrency or blockchain come up in any of those conversations?

I feel by 2018 everyone was trying to sell you on something blockchain related or enabled.

Debbie: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I think, I mean, definitely what people talking about crypto in, in GIC. And there were definitely people in the organization that were very much kind of like honed in on that. And I think because I was more on the consumer side, like again, like I was like saying that a lot of my coverage were really traditional, kind of big global brands.

And you know, it's, it was funny 'cause at the time, thematically a lot of it was how millennials were, which I'm a millennial, but thematically, millennials are coming, you know, having higher purchasing power and how millennials interact with brands differently within the advent of e-commerce and social media.

And it's funny because I think like we're looking at it several years on, and obviously it just feels like, you know, part of our daily lives, but it really wasn't too long ago where people were just starting to wrap their heads around the idea of like social media and how brands could be using it and how young consumers would be interacting with it in a different way.

So I would say that I had heard about crypto was never really fully kind of immersed in it. But I would say the one kind of commonality throughout you know, the start of my career was always having a finger on the pulse on how consumers interact. I guess not just with brands, but also with each other.

How do they consume what, like how do they consume your media? How, where do they get their information from? Like how are they paying? Right? In the, in the past, like my mom would be, are you crazy? Why would you put your credit card information on the internet? And now obviously it's you know, it's, it's commonplace and so I..

Stephen: On our phone. It's not enot even on the internet anymore. Our credit card information's on our phone and our watch.

Debbie: Yeah, and so now I think when I think about crypto and when I think about Web3 blockchain and all of that, for me it really is just a continued evolution. And I think that for a lot of people, they haven't, they haven't quite got that aha moment yet, but for me it really just is, oh, it's just a continuation of everything that we've seen, you know, over the past kind of 10 years or so.

Stephen: You know, I have to talk about one, I'm an MMA fan, you know, you know the championship, that league that you were part of won. Talk to me about that. 'cause everyone I think knows pride, it was eventually absorbed by the UFC. Talk to me about one, what was it like working in that organization you think of like fighting?

Was it very business oriented? Was it very, and I think you kind of helped them launch the more strategic end or during the pandemic around merchandising and, you know, clothing and apparel. Talk to me about working in such, what would probably be the equivalent, I would say to the UFC in Asia? Or maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Debbie: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think probably very similar. You know, like I said, I had always wanted to, well, not always wanted, but I, I think deep down there was a part of me that knew that I didn't wanna work in finance for the rest of my life. And I was really trying to kind of find a way to leave the industry in a way, which is pretty hot once you've been in a, in, in, in an industry for like seven years.

Like, you know, I was interested in working at startups, but obviously had no operational experience other than my site hustle, which was an indoor cycling studio. And I guess I just got given this incredible opportunity to join one championship, which was you know, a rocket ship. You know, they had just raised a round with great institutional investors you know, was seeing kind of rec a high growth in terms of viewership.

And so, you know, really kind of hit it off with the CEO Chari and, you know, kind of became his chief of staff like, you know, and, and was effectively kind of working on the highest priority strategic projects. So it was an incredible experience. I would say I still sometimes miss working in live sports.

There is nothing that beats the adrenaline of like, seeing it in person and not really knowing when it's going to happen. Once, like when you are in it, it feels pretty crappy from a work-life balance standpoint because you have, like, imagine working for the NFL, the NBA, it's kind of like you have no, like weekends, right?

Like there are there are games all the time, but, and we used to have fights all over Southeast Asia. And so there were fights like every week or every other week. So travel was pretty intense. But, but yeah, like I was really fortunate enough to kind of lead the company's ex entry into Japan.

So, got the. Great fortune of being able to travel to Japan every single month. Hired a team, built different ground up, oversaw our first two events. Also took the company into eSports, so that was kind of like a new content vertical for the company. And then last but not least, was kind of running the whole merchandise division during the pandemic, which was honestly such a great learning experience.

E-commerce went from 20% of our sales since, you know, t typically most of the merchandise sales will happen at the life events and end to 2020. And we didn't really have a single life event at all. And it went from 20% of sales to 99% of our sales. And not only that, our sales had like, I think five x in a year when we had no life events.

So, that was just you know, a great, incredible experience that I'm so grateful to Chare still. And you know, he was a tough boss, but and, and a tough working environment, but truly, truly learned a lot.

Stephen: It is a tough business altogether. Right? It's people. I'm assuming that business is people more than you would think it is. 'cause you're dealing with the fighters. You're, you're dealing with customers. You're, it's, it is a lot of people. What, what was the hot seller like, what was the top thing that you were like, I can't believe this is flying off the shelves.

Is it like, you know, wristbands that say like, you know, what is the top seller for one championship?

Debbie: Oh my gosh. Well, we did a whole, like, I have like a whole actually coffee table book that I made honestly as a gift to my team. But we revamped everything, so we like reinterpreted the logo, like, you know, simplified it so it looked better on merchandise. So even like basics were just like flying off the shelves.

But the ones that were really cool, we had like a couple of collaborations with the Bruce Lee Foundation and also with Muhammad Ali. And like, those were really, really popular because it also allowed us to reach out of our usual kind of fan base. It allowed us to reach just kind of fight fans in general of these like two legends.

So, and both of those collections are like incredible collections. I was I I, I've just been moving, so I ch upon this book that I had made, so I was like, wow, like we did such cool, incredible things. So, so yeah. But, but it was such a great experience.

Stephen: I love that. Talk you, you mentioned the, the spinning you know, having a spinning shop a couple times now, and this is pre pandemic, so maybe pre Peloton, where like everyone wants to go to the Peloton places that were, you know, doing these sessions. What was that like? What was your first, you know, entree into entrepreneurship like.

Debbie: Yeah. It's so funny because that was probably around the time that Peloton was just starting. Like I remember they were just starting to hire folks, or maybe it was like a year after. And it's hilarious because honestly, I, I think this kind of bravado and naivete only comes when you're in your early twenties.

But I remember coming across this New York Times article about how SoulCycle was. Completely de rage and people were addicted to it. And I was like, wow, this sounds really fun. And like Singapore doesn't have anything like this. I don't think Southeast Asia has any kind of concept like this. The only boutique fitness concept that we had in Singapore at the time was yoga.

So I thought, okay, this is a really cool and differentiated way to approach fitness. I love music personally, and it seems like a really fun way to you know, to experience it and to get people fit and to do it together. The hilarious thing is that I had never attended an indoor cycling class at the time.

I had never attended SoulCycle and had no idea what it was like. I could barely even ride a regular bicycle, let alone like, you know, coach people how to do end indoor cycling. But it was one of those things where myself and my co-founder, we were like, this is a moneymaking idea. We have to go for it.

And so honestly, from coming up with that idea to opening our doors, I think it was like five months. And that would include it like, you know, renting a space and like doing all the designs, like hiring, like contractors and designers to, you know, and, and buying the bikes and all of that. So again, like, you know, learned a lot because running a brick and mortar shop is you know, a completely different business from, you know, running something that is like more tech focused.

But I would say, you know, my biggest takeaway from that was really seeing a community come together in real life and the power of community when people are just motivated by a shared mission, shared values. And, you know, I think that's something that I, it didn't really, I didn't really realize how important that was.

And then now kind of going into the crypto space, then realizing the power of community. But again, it's something that is formed, you know, over the internet versus in person.

Stephen: I love that. That's a great story. Are there any like, you know, macro trends that you see because you said like, Hey, there was nothing really like this in Singapore, but you see it popular in other places. Like in New York is always like, I feel a good breeding ground for cool ideas and then it goes out from there.

Was there any, whether it was SoulCycle, I'm sure that might not have been the only idea you're like, yo, this would be good here in Singapore. Was there anything that you've seen even in crypto where you see that there's a little bit of an arbitrage just because of that natural delay between something gets hot in a versus and vice versa.

Things are hot in Asia that haven't hit us. Is there anything that comes to mind when I say that? Like, oh, these are cool arbitrages I've seen throughout my career.

Debbie: I mean, like, I think clearly, I think for some of these consumer businesses and consumer services, like New York tends to always be, you know, ahead of the game. Like, and, and you're right, like definitely some parts in Asia as well, like Japan and Korea, like I. Considered culture setting cities and I, I don't know if they still have that at Nike, but I remember back in the day when I was looking at Nike, they had like these priority cities, which they identified as kind of the ones that set these global trends in motion.

And so, it was really critical to kind of have your eye to the ground your eye on, on those cities in general because they're so much a determinant of what drives global culture. So, you know, I definitely still kind of look to see what's happening in those. I think there are like certain kind of food trends.

I think in the crypto space it's always tricky because trends really come and go and you can, something may seem like a kind of meta. In the moment. And it may seem like it's around, it's like it's here to stay for the next several months, but it could fizzle out equally as quickly. So, you know, I always say it's hard to call trans, and that's why I always say that you have to be almost kind of cautious before, like kind of going in all, I always say don't be a maxi about anything.

Like just, you know, keep an open mind. But I think specifically with crypto, I think we wanna hop over there. Like, I definitely am really excited about decentralized social and I know that's something that people are still okay. You know, it's like a little early still and like maybe it's a little bit niche and it's hot to distance to mediate, like.

The large companies like Meta or like TikTok. But you know, I think that there's something there which I'm excited to kind of see it pan out. And then I think obviously like stable coins, I, I think that's something that everyone has talked about. But I would say that having run an e-commerce shop before, one thing that hasn't really, like, I think it's an undertold narrative, is how a lot of merchants have to deal with things like chargebacks, payment processing fees, that actually all of those problems could be solved by accepting payments on chain.

So I'm excited to see how that space develops and how easily we can kind of onboard, you know, small like, and medium sized merchants to, to that technology.

Stephen: I love it. Talk to me about Hug. 'cause you created what, and you just exited this organization with Randy Zuckerberg. Two things like obviously everyone wants to know. How did you meet? End up meeting Randy Zuckerberg, and then I'll ask you the next question. Walk us through the origin story of your connection with Randy.

Debbie: Yeah. Gosh. So, so I left one at the end of 2020. You know, it was like one year of building this great consumer products business, like in, in the middle of a pandemic. But I think it's hard to work for a live sports company in the pandemic. You know, it was like a one whole year of like no events that it just felt, you know, it felt a little bit like it was time.

And I guess part of me had always wanted to move back to the US so I basically quit my job, packed two suitcases, brought my dog moved to LA and got there and then realized that I didn't really have much of a professional network in the US and, and obviously the largest market in the world where it's highly competitive.

Not only that, like, you know, I, I know the organizations that I work for in Singapore, like they're renowned organizations in, in Singapore. But once you get to us, people have never really heard of these like companies before. So it was honestly, I think I. Tough in the beginning where I, like, I definitely had to hustle a lot in terms of like, you know, trying to get doors open.

But how I met Randy, which again maybe is the power of being early to something, was that I actually met her in a Discord server of one of the NFT communities that I was a part of. And I wasn't even using my real name. I was using like a like, a pseudonym and I had an avatar. It wasn't even my real face.

And you know, I think we just connected in that Discord survey and said, let's jump in a Zoom call. And you know, then after that I shared my LinkedIn and I shared like all my like, actual information and and then yeah, like the rest is history. Like a couple weeks later we decided to, you know, found, found a company together.

So it is pretty crazy, like a very typical kind of Web3 meet, cute story if you will.

Stephen: Right. Talk to me a little bit. 'cause you probably obviously know this person a little bit better. It almost feels like it doesn't matter how good she is. She's also the sister of an, you know, one of the biggest entrepreneurs in the world. What do you think people don't give her credit for? Because like, they're just automatically associate, you know, any success she has is because her brother is successful.

And I, I'm not paraphrasing, I could be absolutely wrong, but it's hard not to kind of think like, oh, you know, Mark's the, you know, the, the, the golden child. And obviously she, but like, she seems like she's pretty, I've heard her come up in conversations where it's like, no, she's an operator. Let's, let's, she's not here to like, just be related to Mark.

So tell me some of the things that you think people would be surprised about on running a business with her.

Debbie: Yeah, well, so she's Mark's oldest sister and was actually with Facebook, I think for like, at least seven years, maybe longer. She was actually the creator of Facebook Live, so the streaming like, you know, like helping creators go live and. I think was also nominated for an Emmy for I think having coverage of like doing one of Obama's interviews you know, on Facebook Live.

You know, at the time, again, it's funny that now everything is like, live on social media and there's so many different ways of consuming of media. But back in the day, like, you know, it was something completely novel and revolutionary. So yeah, like I think people may not realize that, but you know, she's not just kind of riding on the coattails of, of Mark.

And, you know, kinda since then, you know, she's kind of obviously branched out. She moved to New York to you know, pursue a Korean Broadway. So, she's a Tony Award-winning producer as well, Broadway producer. So I would say working with her is you know, it's, it's incredible because she's got a lot of great ideas and she's also, you know, incredibly positive.

So I think like, you know, she has this way of like seeing the big picture and you know, being like. At the same time also having kind of been through all of the, you know, the early days of Facebook, you know, were definitely, it. It wasn't, you know, smooth sailing the entire time. And you know, she always has these kind of like war stories when the iPhone first came out and, you know, most of Facebook's users were actually on desktop and they had like, no way, like none of the engineers knew how to build any kind of iOS apps and they basically had to retool and reskill and upskill everyone.

So I think when you kind of hear these stories like that, and then you are in kind of now Web3, or you're now in crypto and realizing that, oh, you know, they're definitely gonna be these things that come and go. And it's all about like, kind of making the right bets. And unfortunately, not every single bet is going to pan out, but like, I think having that perspective is really useful when we are once again kind of entering uncharted territory as the internet continues to evolve.

Stephen: This makes a lot of sense and I appreciate that. What was like that one thing that you both were like agreed on, that like made you want to work out something? Was there something you saw like, oh, this is going, you know, this is going the crypto bro world, just the same way the tech bro world went. Was there something you're like, Hey, we need to make a stand.

We need more diversity. Or like, Hey, how come there isn't a platform for A, B, C? Like what was that one thing that you both were like, Hey, this is the problem we need to solve.

Debbie: I think like both of us have huge passion for creators. So, you know, obviously I think just like, like I just shared about her background, like kind of, you know, went from Silicon Valley to Broadway, which is crazy. You know, so I think she always felt like she had that oxy side of her and that tech side of her and like, okay, this seems a perfect way to kind of like marry the two.

And so I think on my side as well, like I always felt like I had a creative streak in me, but was never really allowed the flexibility to pursue it. I had a really conservative, kind of like Asian upbringing. And so, you know, our mission from day one building hug was how do we empower artists to become successful entrepreneurs or creatives to become successful entrepreneurs?

And to do so with kind of the latest technology, resources, tools, education and that really kind of was how HUG was born.

Stephen: And you had both like physical art, I think people were selling as well as digital art, obviously like a brilliant plan during NFTs, nft, what we call defi summer and the height of NFTs in 2021. But what happened in 2022, like for you guys, 'cause you just exited in 2024. What happened during that time? Was it like, did you have to deal with layoffs and you know, the creators are looking at you like, Hey, I thought you said this NFT thing was gonna be big.

And obviously they saw the payoff for a few months. Like what was the like going through that as a founder of a marketplace like that?

Debbie: Yeah, and I think like, it always kind of, kind of boiled down to our mission, which was again, it's like empowering artists to become entrepreneurs with all of the, the range of tools and, and technology that they have. So yeah, like I think it was never really about like, let's just go all in on like NFTs, you know?

I think from the very beginning it was. We believe that creators are successful if they can diversify revenue streams. So if you are an artist that, and, you know, we definitely came out of the crypto space, so, you know, most of the artists in the beginning were very much kind of crypto native and like, you know, had sold their first like NFT before.

But we would like basically give them education and resources to why not kind of like diversify your revenue streams and explore selling your work as physical items to kind of reach a broader audience as well because they're gonna be people out there who don't really understand the value of, you know, collecting NFTs.

And, but you know, over time, like if they are a fan of your work, they will want to support you regardless of how you're selling your work. And I would say the flip side was true as well. So, you know, as we started expanding outside our core audience of crypto native artists, we started hitting a lot of traditional artists or even digital illustrators who, you know, maybe would sell prints but had never really considered selling their work on chain.

And so there was a lot of education. There as well. Proving them, proving to them, you know, why the blockchain is so powerful, how it gives them another way to monetize their creations, connect with their collectors and really do all of these things that you know, that I, and, and one of the things that I like to say is that I.

Artists didn't wake up one day because of NFTs and then said, oh, I'm an artist today. Because now NFTs exist, right? Like several artists and several creators have been creators for years before this technology even became like a little bit more mainstream or even became like, oh, even started being adopted.

And so, you know, I, I'll like, what we really wanted to do was to build marketplace that allowed everyone to embrace the full range of how they could monetize their aircraft. Versus, you know, the status quo, which was, oh, if you wanna buy my NFTs, maybe go to an open sea or go to a foundation. But if you wanna buy my physical items, go to N et C.

And yet now having to send people to different places without the opportunity to kind of bring audiences together and cross sell to people who are at the end of the day, just wanna see you succeed and offense of your work.

Stephen: That makes a lot of sense. What do you feel about the way NFTs stay in the industry stands today? You know, a lot of those projects, you said not a lot of people were artists before they got into NFTs. A lot of people turned into NF T artists very quickly. I think when they saw that they could sell 10,000 NFTs for a hundred dollars a piece and become a millionaire we saw a lot of those projects significantly go down, but the underlying technology is still there.

What are your thoughts on where we stand in NFT world today?

Debbie: You know, and it is such a funny thing 'cause like you said, underlying technology student, right? So, and you know, the word NFT, like I, I get why it's called that. But another analogy that I like to use is, you know, a dating myself, right? Back in the day when we used to kind of like illegally download music off Napster or Limewire and we would like turn to our friends and say, oh, what MP threes do you download today?

Or like, what MP threes are you listening to? Like, we're just listening to music. Like I, you know, I'm not listening to a Britney Sphere's MP three, I'm just listening to Britney Spheres a song, right? So I think similarly, like, I think with NFTs there is this, you know, and I think it is better now, but you know, maybe there's still a misconception of like, oh, the quote unquote NFT industry, which is a weird way of saying that at the end of the day, it's just an underlying technology like, the California DMB has put title deeds on chain, right? So those title deeds are NFTs, but we don't call it the title deed, NFT industry, they are just title deeds. And I think we'll continue to see that as well with things like ticketing, with things like memberships. So I think right now we're at a junction where we're at a juncture where the underlying infrastructure has also improved.

It's much quicker. It is cheaper to transact on a blockchain. So we're gonna see much wider applications of NF t of, of NFTs. I think specifically where we're talking about like digital art being sold as NFTs. Then that's something where you know, obviously I think the industry is continuing to evolve, like, you know, in the beginning.

I think unless you are a very, very well renowned artist, like it's probably difficult to sell kind of your one-on-one pieces for such a high price. And you know, I think now artists are looking at. Starting to look at NFTs maybe more as kind of, prints, right? They are, maybe they're like digital prints of, of their work.

And I'm more open to the concept of like, you know, open additions and letting as many people collect their work as possible and maybe looking at it as a way to kind of increase their distribution and reach a different audience. So again, there are different models and I think it's all about kind of experimenting to see what works best for the artist or the creator at, you know, different PO points of their career.

Stephen: You are right. We don't call it like what you're right. Back in the day it wasn't like, oh, what did we think about this MP three industry? It was just like, it's music or it's movies. You know? We wouldn't classify it based on the technology and I see your point. That's kind of what we're doing now is like classifying a whole range of different categories into one thing as NFTs, where it doesn't really make sense.

When you think of it from an MP three point of view, what do you think about, especially 'cause you, you know, you spend so much time with Randy helping creators. What your thoughts on the way, you know NFT royalties was kind of that way creators could get paid. A lot of platforms started removing royalties and it starts to become a contentious issue in the industry as a whole.

What are your thoughts on how creators are getting paid now or if they've opened up or you've seen other openings into other ways to make revenue going into this industry?

Debbie: Yeah, I think that was definitely like, you know, a bummer for the entire industry. And I, I think for a lot of people, like myself included, it was very much like, oh, this is why this industry is so exciting, right? Like we you know, the, the, the story tale of like, you know, maybe Picasso's first painting, you know, probably sold like for nothing.

And now if you were to sell Picasso, like, you know, his, sure he's passed away, but like, you know, his estate doesn't get any of that. And I think all of a sudden the whole idea of royalties. Was something that felt really meaningful and a great way to actually onboard artists onto Web3, and then to then tell people like, oh, you know, now it's kind of optional and people like don't pay it.

So I mean, I think definitely like, there are people that have been making, you know, advances in terms of protocols. So like, you know, royalties being enforced on chain, which in the past it wasn't. So I think that definitely kind of like technological advances in that direction to kind of ensure that royalties are being paid.

But I'll also say that like, just like buying a physical piece of art, like sure, like I don't think that many people like buy a physical piece of art and then expect to sell it like the next day. Like most of the times people are like buying it for the long haul. So I think for artists it's, you know, I think while like it's a bummer that kind of royalties are not like as enforceable as we once thought it was. I also think that they've kind of embraced it or not really not, okay. Maybe not embracing it is not really the word, but I think have been more open to kind of different models on how their work could be collected. And there are a lot of companies that are doing innovative things with that. So like, foundation has started a new application called Rodeo that allows people to, you know, collect artwork. And it doesn't have to necessarily have to be finishared artworks. It could be like, works in progress for a really small fee.

But again, it's about kind of how do you. Broadening your reach, right? Versus posting it on Instagram. You could get a thousand likes, but you get 0 cents for your thousand likes versus having it be collected on chain, and now you have a thousand people that have actually paid you something for it. And every time that gets sold on rodeo, you also get paid, right?

So that in that sense, royalties are being enforced. And then you also have companies like Zuora that are kind of turning every single collectible post into a token of sorts. So really try to increase the liquidity of like a creator's work, which, like I mentioned, I think in a conventional art wall, like I'm going out to buy a p an artwork for my wall over here.

There is no liquid market where I, you know, I put it up on my wall. I realized that, oh, I actually don't like how it looks and there's like no real way for me to like flip it or to even sell it at a loss if I, if I wanted to. So, I think it's. Really about kind of embracing these new and emerging models that are coming up.

Even as, again, it's always like luxurious out outline. How long are these kind of models going to stay? But I always say that if you're not exploring it and you're not fully looking at a potential, what is possible because of this technology chances are you're probably gonna be the one losing out when one of them does eventually stick.

Stephen: So you exit hug. What, what was the decision process? You know, we have a lot of entrepreneurs that listen to this, that will be listening to this episode. What's your thought process, you know, when you're getting acquired, do you already know your next steps? You seem like a free spirit in the sense like, oh, I'll, I'll kind of just go and figure it out as I go along.

Or was it like, was it time to kind of move on from this? Like what was your thought process through, you know, before you know the exit strategy.

Debbie: No, I mean, I think like, you know, we we had a great acquirer whom we had been partnered with for about a year prior to, nearly a year prior to the acquisition. So they happened to be people that we the dot domain registry happened to be people that we got to know really well over the course of 2024.

And I think like as we were kind of like, you know, we had launched a lot of new features. We had like a great user growth, you know, I think. Went from kind of like a few thousand like, the year before to like ending the year on like 35,000 users. So, you know, I think we're seeing like such great user growth and I think we're at this point where, you know, obviously we could raise you know, go down the path of like raising a series A or we could, you know, examine like, is there is there other better strategic options where people with the right resources and the right network and the right ecosystem could, you know, kind of take what we have built and really kind of make it even bigger and better.

And you know, I think we were frankly open to both and we just like started having kind of exploratory conversations with them. They have, you know, they've been around since 2016 or 2017, have like over 400,000 domains and great kind of like networks and relationships with like museums and galleries.

And they had actually been building very similar features to us as well where you know, they. You know, truly believe in a power of identity. And I think like anyone's online identity, especially in this world is you know, is so paramount and what what strong identity do you have Then like a domain name, right?

So, but on top of that, they were also building kind of like Web3 blockchain, authentic authentication and verification tools for artists. And we kind of had that as well. And we had great, our, our whole thing was how do we build profiles for artists to really help them effectively tell their story?

And I think when we kind of look at our product roadmaps, there were like so much overlap there that it just kind of made sense to, you know, join them and be a part of their ecosystem and, you know, allowed 'em to kind of build like all of these great tools that they had and like kinda you know, continue giving back to the hub community that we had built.

So that was really kind of like the thought process around it. And you know, it just felt like it, they, you know, we found a community, a great home and they're still continu continuing to further our mission, which was, you know, at the end of the day that was the most important to us.

Stephen: And that's huge when you can kind of find that synergy. I hate to use that word, synergy, but it is huge when you can find a synergy like that where someone's taking over the mission and they were building something very similar anyway, so you knew that they weren't gonna like completely gut what you had built or disregard what you were built.

They would only expand upon it. Now that brings us to Digital Maverick. Your new book is coming out. I think you could still pre-order it or it's already on shelves. Some people have received it early. Talk to me about, like, I always ask authors on this show, what made you decide to write a book? Like what was it that you needed to get out there that was just like itching your hand to start writing on paper?

Debbie: Gosh. Yeah, so it is out officially, I think it officially got publishared about two to three weeks ago. So, yeah, available on Amazon, but de Noble. But but gosh, so I, when I first joined the, the Web3 space, I, I guess was writing a lot on Twitter. Like, so I would write like Twitter threads, like, or acts like weekly.

I don't do that as much anymore because obviously all of the energy kind of went into writing the book. But I actually got approached by somebody who worked at Wiley at the end of 2022. Yeah. End of 2022, asking if I would be interested in writing a book. You know, just given all of the things that I've been writing on on Twitter.

And I mean, I was definitely, I mean, I was like flattered, but also completely like taken by surprise because I had never really thought of like becoming an author. Like, you know, it just, it wasn't necessarily like on my bucket list or anything. And it so happened as well that we were in the middle of trying to close hugs seat round around a time when the FTX collapse had just happened.

So I was like, there is no way, like, you know, I am like, you know, knees deep in, in all of this. And then I guess like six months after, like, you know, after the round hat, like a little while after the round had been closed, I guess the crazy bit of me was just like, you know, I'm not someone to turn down opportunities that Cub's knocking.

So I don't even know if this opportunity is still on the table. But, you know, let me just kind of, reach out and see if that offer was still on. So I kind of reached out, I would say in April of 2023 or so, or like April or May of 2023. And and, and the publisher was like, yeah, like, you know, if you have a book proposal, put it put it together.

And so at the time, I think like there were other. Crypto books that were coming out. Like I think Chris Dixon's, I read write Own, I can't remember exactly when that came out, but like, you know, there were like other books that were coming out around that time. And obviously there were very, like, I think they were definitely more on the technical side and they were very much in terms of, you know, here's all the things that blockchain could do.

And so, okay. Well I, I just felt, okay, I don't necessarily want to write another book that is a replica of that, and nor do I necessarily feel, I don't really come from a technical background, so I also didn't really feel like I could give a very differentiated, like, opinion on, on the application or the technology or like, you know, but I, what I felt like I could do.

Was really tell the stories of how other people had got into the space and how myself, like again, I had, I, I have had such a diverse career. I moved to the US again with no professional connections and somehow and like, you know, in this industry, you know, building and creating alongside other people that I really wanted to, I think a demystify the technology, make it seem like, you know, something that's really approachable and accessible.

But secondly also give people kind of like a how to guide on if they had been like on defense and, you know, didn't really dedicate the lead or maybe saw themselves as, oh, I'm not a developer so there's no way I could contribute, there's no way I could work in tech. And, you know, that couldn't be further from the truth, obviously.

So, you know, that was really the motivation behind it. And. So I would say the book is 50%, how to guide on, you know, how do I create a path for myself in crypto? How do I navigate this crazy evolving world that moves so fast? And the other 50% of it are really just human stories of how other builders, other artists in the space, how did they actually kind of end up where they are?

Because, you know, everyone looks at these, you know, artists or like builders and they're like, oh, you know, they made millions of dollars in this, in this drop. And I always say, every overnight success is years in the making. And so it was really fascinating, I think to deep dive into everybody's kind of personal stories because obviously not every single person story is gonna be relatable, but I think within the 13 stories that are there, there is going to be at least one person's story where you're like, that's just let, that person's childhood was exactly like mine, and they just decided to take a little bit more of a risk.

And now they're here doing what they, do.

Stephen: You know, I wanna talk about two things. When they said, Hey, come up with a book proposal. What type of person are you? Are you the person that like, okay, I'm gonna hire the best book proposal coach. Are you gonna be like, let me just speak to another author and see if they can send me a template? Are you guys like Wiley?

Explain what a, like, send me some examples of book proposals. Like what type of person, where do your, where does your brain go? Or are you just Feverously like on Google, like trying to figure out what book proposal. Like I always wanna know when people get hit with something like that. And was that a surprise to you?

Were you kind of like, Hey, you guys came to me, I thought you had to figured out what you wanted me to do?

Debbie: Oh gosh no ChatGPT is my, my best friend. Like, you know, I was like, what is a template for a book proposal? What does that look like? So, I mean, but yeah, the ideas were all mine obviously. But like, I think when it comes to things like that for like a template ChatGPT is amazing. Like I also, I would say I also use it, I mean, there are like terms and conditions in like the writer's agreement that like, you have to specify or like you can't use AI to write your book or whatever.

But I think like at the end when they said, okay, we need a glossary, and I was just like a glossary for like, you know, I don't know how many words were in that glossary. I was like, okay, I think this is something that AI can help with in terms of like giving glossary type definitions. That, you know, goes as references at the back of the book. But yeah.

Stephen: That's super interesting. And then you get to a point where like you have the book proposal, you have the ideas. How do you determine who gets to make that 13? Do you ask 25 people and like, you know, a couple are like you know, maybe next year or that people like banging down your door like, yo, why was I number 14 or 50?

Like, you had room in that book to include my story. How did you kind of go through that thought process of selecting people? Or you just tried to make sure that the, the stories were very different from, because I see the list of people, it's a very interesting list of, of creators in the book. How did you kind of go through who to pick and what story to tell.

Debbie: Yeah, so, so the form of the book is that like, so I guess I wrote my part of the book first. Like I said, it's like 50% kind of like how to guide, and then I guess somehow it ended up at 13 chapters. So I thought, okay, you know what a great format would be? Chapter story, chapter story, chapter story. So the 13 was an accidental number, I guess that was kind of based on, you know, how many, how much I had written.

And then I think when it came down to selecting the people, like deciding Coer approach I definitely had people that were at the top of my list and I also felt like if those people said yes subsequent people, if they had known that like this person had said yes, they were also more likely to say yes.

Right. Because you know, it's not as though I've written these stories before. I think now it's a lot easier when I approach someone and I say, Hey, would you like to be interviewed? Like, I will like tell your I'll tell your story in a really like fun and engaging way. Now it's definitely a lot easier to do so, but I think at the time definitely had to get a few in and then kinda see if the rest will follow.

But yeah, I think I was very thoughtful in terms of again, I know we kind of mentioned this briefly, but I think, and you know, now it's like, it seems like DEI is a bad word. But you know, I think di but diversity and inclusion has always been, you know, something that's really important to me.

So, I think if you look at the and it's not something that I feel like you need to necessarily like. Brag about, but I think if you look at the names of the people, like USC, that they reflect a very diverse range of identities as well as kind of paths that they have taken as well as nationality.

So that was really kind of the, in, that was also intention behind who I chose and who I wanted to represent. But yeah, like I think a lot of them, it, it naturally does bias a little bit more towards the creative side just because of my work at Hug. But you know, within there as well, we have investors, we have other founders.

We have like, we have like Jesse Pollock is you know, he's a builder at base and, and more of a technologist and the developer, but, you know, found the entire like blockchain protocol. So, so, you know, that's, I think a good mix of different types of stories and how kind of people came to be.

Stephen: Talk to me about diversity. 'cause you mentioned it, obviously now it seems like the world is changing. We went, you know, there's a pendulum, right? I think we swung way too much one way or the other, where I think you very similar, I feel like I'm probably older than you, but we're like millennials, you know, I'm a at the upper edge of a millennial, but I also grew up in such a diverse community.

Like, you know, everyone looked different. Like there was no like, hey, black and white. It was just like everybody was mixed together where I was in Toronto, in Canada. What are your thoughts about this? Like, how can we get it back to the point where it's like we're not, you know, virtue signaling, but we're also keeping in the back of our mind when we're interviewing, when we're, you know, getting people on the podcast.

Like, why don't we start thinking about different, you know, backgrounds, not just about ethnicity and race and gender, but just different backgrounds. Like how can we balance that now when it seems like it's such a push to like get rid of it all together?

Debbie: Yeah. And I, I mean, I think the push to get rid of it really stems from like a misunderstanding of how it is applied. It's not like, like you said, it's like it's not butcher signaling. It's not having that token woman on the panel. It's not having that, you know, that token Asian person on, on, on whatever show it is.

Right. It's not. It's not about that. I think it's about being intentional, about like, looking at the, like obviously you still want to go out and get the best people who can co comment on the industry the best, whatever, best person for the role. But I think it's about whether you are, I think reflecting on where are you finding these people and reflecting on like how have you.

Like, have you really given much thought to because it could be, I could easily have like featured 13 all incredible and, and it would've been equally respected you know, creators or builders in their own right. And then look at a list and be like, oh gosh, it's like all 13 white men.

Right? Which then doesn't really reflect a diversity of like, opinion, and not to say, not to discredit any of their achievements, right? They're all like, you know, valid and worth sharing and worth talking about. But at the same time, like, I think it's kind of taking a step back and like then saying, okay, what does it look like?

Does this really represent the diversity of the ecosystem that we're in? And you know, obviously sometimes it's hard in tech because it is and in crypto especially because it is, it does tend to be a male dominated industry. But then I think to then say, oh, you know, I couldn't find a single, and again, it's not just about gender, but I'm just using that as an example.

But then to be like, oh, I couldn't find a single woman that could that was an expert on this topic. You know, I think that's a little bit of a cop out. So I think it really just is about being more intentional and being more mindful. I think most of the times they're just really blind spots because, you know, like, who are the most famous people that come to mind and you just like read off a few names and not, not realizing that you've like not really taken the effort to look outside your echo chamber or your bubble to see who else is doing incredible things out there.

Stephen: That's really great. Tell me about, you have in the book three essential Steps for Becoming a Digital Maverick. Why don't we dive deep into I wanna hear your opinions, like, what is, what is the most essential step or what's the one that people have this biggest struggle with? So tell us the three steps.

What is the one that people like? Just, that's the one that you really have to kind of hold people's hand with. 'cause that's where you, you tend to lose people when they're trying to get into.

Debbie: Yeah. Gosh. I mean, I think they're like, so there are seven steps. You know, and I should probably be better at like being able to like rattle them off. But like, but I would say actually one of the most important ones I, which I think honestly applies to a lot of things in life, is kind of like understanding and I think in crypto especially holding on to your why.

And a lot of the times, like, you know, people get into, I mean, people get into crypto for different reasons, right? So like, I think understanding why exactly you're passionate about this industry is really critical because like if you're in it just to make money, that's totally fine. Like, nobody is shaming, like, I'm not shaming anybody that like, you know, traits, meme coins, but it's like, just be very clear that that is your primary objective and your primary motivator, and you're going to find other people that share those values and share, or not necessarily sharing those values, but sharing that same objective.

And you're going to have a very different kind of like news consumption compared to other people. If you're here, like as an artist and you're here to really look at this as a new and novel way of connecting with your collectors, and that's your primary why and, and you're curious about it, then like, kind of hold onto that.

And I think a lot of the times it's really difficult because to kind of hold onto it because like say I'm an artist and say I came in with that whole, you know, I have this. Optimistic view of the world that like NFTs are going to, you know, make me like rich and all of that. And then I see my other people like making money off meme coins and then all of a sudden yell like, this is a whole waste of time.

Like, I don't really wanna be here anymore. Like, you know, this is really depressing for me. And then like you've basically completely undone all of the work that you've done to, you know, like actually understand the industry and understand what the technology is. So I would say that's like a really critical bit that, that like, I kind of ask people to like really reflect on why it is that you are interested in this space.

So I would say that's one. And then maybe another one that I would highlight is kind of like, like, I guess like finding, and I, I, I jokingly call it a cabal because it was kind of like a meme that was going around like a couple years ago. But really finding like your community and finding your group of people that that at the end of the day they call, like, you know, they were saying that there's a lot of insider trading, which yes, there is for like a lot of pump and dump schemes.

And there all of these cabals that people are a part of. And then I was just like, oh, I'm not a part of any cabal. And then actually a really good friend of mine was like, well, you know, cabal iss really just like a community. It's just like your close friends. And I was like, oh, that is actually true.

So it really is just about. Finding people that again, probably have a very similar why as you do. And like being able to lean on them because they will have like information, they'll be seeing things that that you may have missed. And you know, it's also about supporting each other, right? Because this is a very volatile industry and that's always new things happening.

And having like a group of people that you can turn to, to just ask questions about being about fearing being ridiculed, I feel like it's really important.

Stephen: How hard was it? 'cause you've seen a lot of different beer and bull markets. You've been part of Discords in communities and probably Telegram communities. How hard is it to maintain a community? Because like we see how the interest fleets with, as you say, with opportunities and money. Like everyone was telling me how their best discord group, this NFT, the community so good until nobody was making money and then that community evaporated.

So how, you know, how have your artists, or what are your advice or suggestions to people that are trying to build an authentic community and then maybe trying to not get wrapped up into like meme, coin culture or things that might be fleeting or highly speculative but still has people's attention and, you know, still garner's interest from the, in the inter, the whole community as a whole.

Debbie: Yeah, I mean, I think a word community obviously gets thrown around a lot, right? Like, just because you're launching a meme coin and like a bunch of people bought into it doesn't really mean that you have a community if then, like they all like saw your meme coin the next day, right? Like it's not really a community.

If it like came and went in like 24 hours, so. I always feel like community, well, just words that just gets like, you know, overused and almost like everything is a community. So like I, so I always caution people to like, you know, really reflect on what does a community mean. And I think it's about like really having kind of like a shared purpose and, you know, a shared objective and like values and, and mission and they wanted that.

They have that thing where they wanna be active participants in it as well. And, you know, pumping and dumping a coin like within 24 hours is not really about like being an active participant in all of that. So I think that's like the first thing where I'd be like, okay, be really clear. What, what is a community and what isn't.

And then I would say that, yeah, like I think it's really easy to bring people together when there is that promise of financial upside. It's much harder and, and you could do it much more quickly or you could take a more intentional and slow approach where the community is still strong, whether there is or there isn't that that monetary opportunity.

And I, I feel like that was the approach that we took at Hug as well. You know, we were very much focused on artists and very much focused on educating creators. So, you know, we were like, we didn't, you know, grow to, like, we didn't get to the numbers that we did overnight, but at least the retention that we had and the people that were there from day one, like, we still see them, like, you know, active and supporting each other.

So, that's kind of like the, the I guess the perspective that I have. But yeah, it's like, I think community takes a lot of work. Like it doesn't just, you know, like you have to continue, like nurturing it. You have to give re people a reason to come back. You have to give people, let people know that whatever they're doing contributes to the community and to the greater good and that, so a lot of it is like really reinforcing that cycle of like, you know, positive like outcomes from their participation.

And then I think the last thing that I'll also say is that it's physically not possible for someone to be in like, an unlimited number of C communities, right? Like, you know, there's that dumb buzz law of like, you know, individual connections, which I, I, I don't know. I think it's like a hundred, 150. And I would say like, that's probably true as well when it comes to communities, right?

Like. Maybe even in your real life, you have your gym or your fitness community, or if you go to a place of worship, you have your religious community. Or like you, you love a sports team. That's another, a community. So like, I think there's like a physical limit to the number of communities that one person can be a part of.

And so like I think if you're going after kind of that same audience, you have to ask yourself what makes my community so much better than somebody else's? Especially in a space that is, you know, still very, very nascent. And, you know, it's definitely not as like, mainstream as you know, as the broader internet, if you will.

Stephen: I think education's important. I think the communities I've seen do well, like obviously Gary V had a pretty good community, but you educated a lot of people, so you got them into crypto, but you also educated them very well when they were there. Also the numbers didn't really make sense. To your point, not everyone can be a part of every community, but every community had like 40,000 people.

It's like, okay, I don't think there's that many people in, in crypto, like actively. So I think engagement versus, you know, the, the, the quality of the community versus the quantity. I think a lot of people got sold early on about how big the community was not realizing like that's not an, an immediate factor or usually doesn't play as to the actual success of the project that they're invested in.

You know, the a thousand true friends is what a lot of people talk about, and that dichotomy really makes sense. What are some of the stories? Was there anything, when you're having these conversations, obviously you know these people from, I, I'm assuming somewhat, these are warm, you know, leads that you have.

Yeah. Matt from NFT now, which is awesome. Randy, Jesse what, was there any story that you're like, oh, I didn't know that about their journey, that was really interesting to you? Or like, oh, I didn't know that's the way they, you know, like, got into this industry, or that's the way they looked at certain things in the industry.

Was there anything that even shocked you during the interview process?

Debbie: Yeah, I mean, I think like, I mean, I obviously knew so yeah, definitely someone of I knew better than others. So I, I obviously kind of knew roughly like how long they had been active in the industry for. I think for a lot of them, like I really didn't know what they, like my, all my interviews that we start off with.

Like, where were you born and what was your childhood like? So, you know, I like didn't know any of that. Like, with, I think similar to you asking me like, what did I wanna be when I, when I grew up? Like I think that's always such an interesting insight when you realize how. You know, people like people's career journeys or their life paths will take them on unexpected.

You know, it will take them down unexpected roads. And so I think like, I mean, and honestly there were like, so many great stories. It's hard to pick just one. But I mean, like, you know, there's this AI collaborative artist class, silver, you know, who is like one of the most renowned artists in her field.

And you know, she like and you know, she, she's Pseudonymous so no one knows her real identity. But you know, she grew up in like a really, really small town. Like, you know, in, in the middle of America. You know, was actually on her way to becoming like an, an academic and, and like, you know, then got suffered, then suffered a chronic illness and, you know, was like pretty depressed and like somehow found AI and found like her internet community to like really kind of keep her going and now has all the success that she's seen.

Right. So I think a lot of like moving stories like this where like, you, you just completely unexpected how they even ended up here. Like even that you mentioned from NFT now, like, so before all of this. Yeah. You know, he, he was a DJ and he, he like created like billboard dance and, and all of that.

But like I had no idea that in college he wanted to be he actually went to like a war zone and wanted to be a journalist covering like some of those like, you know, different types of current affairs, but always had like a passion for music. So it's just kind of funny that are all these like, I think trivia tidbits about folks that I was then, you know, like pleasantly surprised to, to learn about.

Stephen: And it is kind of interesting 'cause you're bringing them from where they are now and then they get, they get a chance to connect the dots. I think a lot of times those people being interviewed, people wanna know about what's going on right now, their expertise right now in the industry, and they don't really get a chance to maybe connect the dots on like, oh yeah, that's how I actually got here.

And it's funny now that, you know, NFT now is a, a big, you know, platform for media. It makes sense that the music and the journalism, like, it's funny how that all plays in to why they're probably way more effective in the industries that they're in. What, what one thing that as soon as the pen dried and the publisher's like, okay, we're done.

This is going to press that you're like, oh man, I wish I had a chance to include this. Or maybe you might even be working on the bonus chapter for some folks. What's the one thing that you're like, oh man, I really wish I had a, a few extra weeks or months to put this, you know, to cover this a lot, even in your own personal journey,

Debbie: Yeah, no, I mean, I think two things. First is that it's incredibly hard to write a book on crypto because things change so quickly. So even from the time when I had the first version of the manuscript, like when I've submitted the first version of the manuscript too you know, it's gone through rounds of like, you know, proofreading and like copy editing.

And then I realized, well, I need to change some of these things because that's not accurate anymore, or this has already passed. And you know, and I think there are so many, like even regulation, right? Like I have a, a whole chapter on regulation that has changed so immensely,

Stephen: like last week?

Debbie: yeah, like in, in the past, like, so it's, and then you know that I think by the, I think the final manuscript is like due, like it's, it's like locked and loaded in like maybe six to seven months before the actual publication date.

So I already knew at that point, like, I just hope, and I like that, you know, over the six to seven months, like everything that I've written still kind of is applicable.

Stephen: Like, what could change? Are you the administration? Maybe.

Debbie: Yeah, so, so that was like the first bit. I think the second bit was that I obviously like had a blast kind of like interviewing people.

And I wish that there were more stories that I could include. So I actually like wrote my first, kind of like did my first interview feature, like just last week. And it's funny 'cause I printed it out. I was at Eef Denver last week and I interviewed a founder, like kind of before the conference, but I wrote it that week actually.

And then I printed it out and I was like, distribute it at your event. I have a few copies as well. And it's funny because like the feature now at this, at this point in time only exists in print. So the only people that have access to it is her, like people that got it at the event. And..

Stephen: I love that.

Debbie: been trying to figure out like what I do, like how, like how do I publish it?

Like should it be like an on chain collectible? So, and I'm actually trying to write another piece now, so I have this like idea, I have some like. Concept of a plan on like, how do I like extend kind of these stories and maybe they're a little shorter in nature, I think. Like, what's better for people that are like just consuming it over the internet versus like diving it into a book.

So I think that's kind of like what I like, again, I just wish I could have featured so many more people. Like again, it kind of biased to what's a little the creatives just because of my work at hug. But I definitely wanted to cover like, you know, many, many kind of different stories and, and so yeah, I think more, more will be in the works for sure.

Stephen: I am hoping for like a video series, you know, the Digital Mavericks video series where you get to, you know, everyone that didn't make the cut. You're like, Hey, I know you didn't make the cut, you didn't make the book, but it would be funny to like see you do a pop-up everywhere you went, every event where you went and do like interviews.

That would be included in the future publication or book, that'd be pretty..

Debbie: Yeah, volume two maybe. You know, I've thought about like also even extending it to like, you know, a book completely on ai, you know, since that's also like those additional mavericks too. So, so yeah, like I have some ideas. I think it's just kind of like about finding the time and, and, and kinda seeing what sticks and what really resonates with people.

Stephen: As we end the conversation, what's next for you? What are you looking forward to? Because it feels like you're at another place. Like when you, you know, after, you know, after the one champion, you're like, Hey, lemme go explore. It seems like you're almost back there. You just said you mo you, you moved. What is like kind of your path now?

Or are you just like, just taking it all in and just enjoying the time? I'm assuming you have to recover a little bit after writing a book.

Debbie: Yeah, no, I mean, I think like, yeah, I'm exploring, I'm exploring a variety of different opportunities, obviously still wanna stay in crypto, so, you know, that is really my passion. And I think it's been fun, like over the past couple weeks, just kind of focusing on the book and being an author.

Honestly, it feels quite it's, it's, it's weird. I would say it's a weird feeling. Like, and now I, I fully relate to how the artists that I work with used to tell them like, this is how you should market yourself and you should. Go on and be like un unashamed about like telling everybody about the thing, the great things that you've created.

And I realize it's actually pretty hard to do when it's something that is so personal. So, you know, I think I've been trying to get over that, like cringe that personal cringe hill, if you will. But but yeah, it's been really fun, kind of like thinking about how to like continue you know, getting more attention on the book working with potential brand partners to see if they would like to, you know, get it in front of like, other people to onboard folks to crypto.

Again, like for my own kind of creativity, like writing more features. So I've been focusing a little bit on that while also having some exploratory conversations for future opportunities on the side, which are always exciting. But but yeah, watch this space. who knows what will be next.

Stephen: I love it. Any takeaways from East Denver? That seemed like a pretty busy conference. It seemed like a lot of the people I know in my, in my sector went there or out there. Any big takeaways that you're seeing? Especially like it happened right after the buy bit hack, so I think there's a little, probably a lot more chatter around cybersecurity, maybe more than cyber, than the average East Denver conference, but what are your thoughts there?

Debbie: Well, I felt like the, I came a away from it feeling really positive. I felt like the builder energy felt really alive and well. Like, there was, I, it felt like, I mean, in spite of what markets are doing that week, I felt like people were just really excited to be there. And I think, you know, obviously it's traditionally a very like, kind of e like it is a eef conference.

It is like geared primarily towards developers. But you know, I also saw a lot of people that were just there that were interested to learn, right. And like there are some great organizations like she I that put on like a summit, you know, that and yeah, they're geared towards women and they are like, they were great attendance or people just like really curious to see what's going on, you know, whether they would develop this or not.

So. I really felt like that energy was there. There was some really fun brand activations as well. So I kind of came away from it, like, I think feeling really optimistic about the space. I think like, that's obviously, I mean, we have a long ways to go. But but yeah, like I also even you know, had a chance to talk to a couple like Uber drivers who were taking me from like venue to venue, and I gave them like my merchandise told them about my book.

And like, there is like curiosity as well for people to like, they're like, what is this crypto conference? Like, are you here for that? And like, you know, maybe people look at me and they may not think that I'm here for the crypto conference, but you know, they, they like had a definitely a lot of interest.

And so, so yeah, like I'm excited to see like, again, like, you know, all of these conference weeks are always like packed with like so many site events that it's like almost ridiculous. But like, I think at the very least what I felt was like that energy and that excitement. It's there, like I feel it. And you know, I hope people like it gets more and more people like curious about it.

And, and again, like if you don't know where to start, like, I guess my book is a good, good place to start.

Stephen: I love that they're like, oh, have you heard about this cryptocurrency conference? You like jump into the front seat. Funny that you ask you like, pull out your book and they're like all coming to your book signing event. That's amazing, Debbie. You have such a great energy. It's, it's really great to meet people in the industry that's seen a lot of the industry that know the top players in the industry, but then still come off with such a joyous and, you know, curious energy.

And this was just a fun conversation. We're bringing you right up to the hour and 15 minute mark on our side, so we have to drop you. But we would love to have you back. I would love to see, you know, maybe as you start releasing some more of your, you know, ad hoc interviews, maybe at the end of this year we can come back and talk about everything that you've seen throughout the year and maybe find out what you're working on.

'cause I know you're gonna be working on something. It seems like you have the energy too.

Debbie: Well, thank you so much for having me. This was a really, really enjoyable conversation and yeah, I can wait to be back and cutaway to stay connected and, and update everyone on what's next.

Stephen: Awesome. And make sure you guys get the book. We're gonna have it here soon. It's gonna be awesome. I can't wait to read through the, I got the PDF version, but I need to touch the paper. I need to highlight some stuff. I need to write notes. I'm a paper person. I can't do Kindle, so I can't wait to have the book physically here and add it to the shelf.

Debbie: Oh, well thank you so much. Yeah. I'm so excited to come wait for you to, hopefully I can sign it one day.

Stephen: Awesome.