Stephen: Welcome to Around The Coin podcast. This is your host, Stephen Sargeant. You are in for a special today. We have George Khalife, one of the youngest business development vice presidents at the Toronto Stock Exchange and the Venture Exchange that they have here. He talks a lot about the US and the Canadian stock markets.

And what it takes to go public. We also journey down entrepreneurship. He's focusing on startups. He's focusing on servicing entrepreneurs that are looking to open up their horizons when it comes to bringing in capital. We talk about going through and starting up his own startup, one of the best podcasts that he has out there with Let's Grab Coffee, and we talk about education, both traditional and some of the resources he is picked up along the way.

And we might be giving away a free book if you listen all the way to the end. Hope you love this podcast. Leave some feedback and let me know that you're listening on the other side.

Stephen: This is your host, Stephen Stephen, the Around The Coin podcast.

This is a special podcast because it's someone that I've admired for podcasting for a long time, George with TMX Group. George, give us a little bit of an intro about you, your background, and then we're going to dive into some interesting topics about what you're doing there at the TMX Group.

George: I appreciate you having me on. As I said before, it's kind of nice to catch up, especially with, with two friends. So let's treat this episode as a bit of a catch up between two friends. It's good to see you. And thanks again for having me on. Quick background for folks listening who don't know me. So again, my name is George Khalife.

I am now based in Chicago. I've been here for about five years. And I'm a VP of US Capital Formation for the Toronto Stock Exchange, which essentially just means that I'm, you know, very passionate about helping US companies. Go public in Canada on our markets, whether that be TSX or TSX Venture and also a proud Canadian.

And I know we're recording this on Canada Day, so happy Canada Day to those listening. And I used to live in Toronto, so I was there for about 70, seven years. Did a mix of things, always sort of in capital markets or always around startups. So that really has defined my career. I've always been serving founders.

I've always been working with investors, VCs, private equity firms, family offices. Whether it be with the exchange, I've worked for an M& A firm in the past and I've even helped scale a fintech startup from pre seed to just, you know, before their series A. So I had a mix of different experiences, Stephen, if I'm going to use stStephenor the whole podcast, I hope you're okay with this.

That's perfect. Or a sergeant. I mean, sergeant is more badass. So yeah, that's been, that's been my career and, and, you know, born in Lebanon, grew up in the Middle East half of my life. We immigrated to Canada in early 2000s, lived there the rest of my life before moving to the US and, you know, got married two years ago.

Freshly graduated from an MBA program. So lots to talk about. I'm excited to be here and happy to chat.

Stephen: We appreciate you and you're an accomplished podcast host yourself. I know you're humble. So we'll keep that in mind as I dive and probe you to, you know, give us a little bit of the intel.

Talk to us about, a little bit about this niche because, you know, we have a lot of founders and entrepreneurs, startup companies.

You kind of found a niche working with a large traditional stock exchange. Tell me about how you ventured in there, because I think a lot of people on the listening to this wouldn't think that, Oh, I get to work with startups and, you know, these large traditional firms. Like, this almost sounds like a dream job for a lot of people that don't want to go 100 percent into entrepreneurship.

But still want to be on the cutting edge of technology and, you know, startup land. Tell me a little bit about that niche.

George: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you're totally right. And by the way, I never thought I, I could even build a career working for an exchange. Like it never really dawned on me very early in university life.

So I went to the university of Ottawa, one of our alumni is there who became a close mentor and a good friend of mine. Jean Deganier was an executive at TMX group at the time. And he sort of opened my eyes to the company because he's also an alum from the university, was very involved, still very involved in the Alma Mater.

So I kind of started learning more about the organization and they were just rolling out this associate program. Like I'm sure you're familiar, the other banks have them. They're like two year programs. You know, you rotate every six months to different departments. And at the time when I was applying, I was only applying to, to roles You know, before I graduated to roles where I had a deep network.

So that was kind of my strategy. You know, other friends of mine were like spraying and praying, you know, a hundred, a hundred applications. I'm like, that's, it just seemed so tedious. And I'm like, there's no way I want to do that because for me, it was the flip side. I spent all of my time front loading effort and time to build relationships at different organizations.

And so I only targeted companies where I really had a deep seated relationship already built. So it was the opposite. You know, I didn't spend much time on the latter half. And one of those companies was TMS group. Very fortunate to have entered their first cohort within their associate program. And my last, my fourth and last rotation stuff was basically an associate in the sales side of capital formation.

So basically what I do now, it was just, you know, a bit of a reduced role, less responsibilities, but it was a great way to learn. And what I found out when I, when I joined TMX was. And that was kind of my entrance to entrepreneurship. You know, this was also the year that Shopify went public, you know, saw them do the market open.

I always talk about this. It was amazing. You know, they're sort of celebrating, everyone's clapping. They had their friends and family there. Raise a ton of money. And I was like, what, what is this world? I, you know, in university, I took a couple of entrepreneurship classes. I've met some founders. It wasn't really, I studied finance, right?

It wasn't really part of my rhetoric yet. And when I joined TMX, I started meeting all these amazing startup founders who are accomplishing great feats, raising a ton of money, as I said, celebrating their success. And it was only just the beginning. You know, most people think IPOs are the exits. The way we treat them in Canada is more so, you know, a start to continued growth.

It is a growth platform. And so that, that was the best part about it. To your point is, It gave me a lens to both sides, because that's what an exchange is. It's a platform that sits in between companies and capital, and you get the chance to meet both the companies, the innovators, in different verticals.

You have folks doing this in mining, in diversified industries like food and beverage, in technology, in healthcare and life sciences, you know, oil and gas, energy, like that's the beauty about it. It's not just one sector.

Stephen: I'm curious, like, where does the TX lie on, like, the global markets when it comes to exchanges?

Is it a top exchange? Is it a top five? You know, we know New York has a big stock exchange Tokyo has a huge stock exchange. Where would people view, like, the TSX, do you think? Maybe just by perception and where it might actually rank, if there's a ranking for those things.

George: Yeah, yeah, certainly. We're definitely one of the top exchanges in the world.

If you look at the, you know, sort of global hubs for capital, equity capital, Canada certainly ranks, you know, at one of the top. In the past, you know, call it five years, we've helped companies raise more than 180 billion in equity capital. So I think that's the first part. The second piece that I, that I actually always love to talk about is we are one of the top exchanges globally.

Give or take each year globally among other exchanges for international listings. So these are companies headquartered outside of Canada that lists on our markets, be it TSX for late stage companies or TSX Venture for earlier stage companies, and I think that's an amazing metric because it, It's a testament to our platform being a global one.

And to give you perspective, that's more than 250 companies, international companies that are listed. About 126 of them that are here in the U. S. So the U. S. is about 50 percent of that. So definitely a global platform. You know, and the other, the other thing that people don't talk about as much as we're also in a country with one of the soundest financial environments, you know, certainly one of the most regulated, the most notable soundest, safest banking environments there, there is globally.

We haven't had a single bank default in 2008. And so that's, that's an important consideration as well, when you're looking to go public.

Stephen: Do you see trends? Like when you say like there's, you know, most of the companies that are being listed are from the U S. Did that change over the last five years?

Like maybe when Trump's in office or something else, do you see, maybe, can you tell more of like international interests of people like knocking down the door to be placed on the TSX? You probably see some things that maybe others are not paying attention. Maybe before you know, the rest of us see it.

George: Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a great question. You know, I can definitely speak from my vantage point stuff. Like I, again, I've been here in the U S for almost five years now. So I have a pretty good read on. Where our value prop sits internationally, at least for the US markets. The one interesting thing I've realized is our markets are honestly very unique.

The reason they're very unique is we have a two tiered platform. So I'm going to give you a really great analogy. Are you a basketball fan?

Stephen: We definitely watch them, B Wallet, yeah.

George: Raptors, I'm assuming? Yeah, yeah. I kind of have to say yes at this point. So I'm half bulls, half Raptors, alright? Because my audience now is in Chicago too.

Can't disappoint. The very cool part about our, the way our markets are made up is you have TSX Venture Exchange as a starting point. So for folks listening, this is a bonafide regulated stock exchange. This is an exchange where companies can go public. Just earlier in their life cycle. So think of a company that's about a hundred million or even 50 million in size, we say market cap, but think of it as 50 million market cap or size, right?

This is a company doing anywhere between two to 20 million in revenue, and they want to raise a bit of capital also in that range, maybe three or 4 million. So this is an early stage business, that kind of a business, Can't or even shouldn't go public on a senior exchange like an ASDAC or an IZ or TSX for that matter.

And so the starting point, the launching pad is the TSX venture, which is like the NCAA, but I always use that analogy. You know, imagine a high school player. It's very difficult for a high school player, grade 11, grade 12, to go and play immediately for the Los Angeles Lakers. That's a, you're asking a lot for that individual.

It's much better if they go and play at Duke under Coach K, you know, one of the best coaches. You go, you play there for about three or four years, you build up confidence, you build up your skills, you play in front of a crowd, a pretty large crowd. You know, so you build up that runway to then when you get traded to the big leagues, you feel comfortable, right?

Cause you've built up the credibility, the reputation. And that's exactly what happens when companies.

So, they're able to do so a bit more seamlessly. And now they're listed on a senior exchange. So really that's what TSX is. It gives an ability for later stage companies to trade on a senior exchange. They get more visibility. They have access to institutional investors. Many of them can be included in indices, a lot of which we trade. So that's kind of the benefit, you know.

Stephen: And do startups like this? Because similar to college basketball, that's where, you know, you get a lot of exposure, you're getting your reps and you're building up your brand so that you can go higher in that kind of draft when you, is that kind of like what startups like or do startups like, Hey, I need, I want the big contract straight from high school and you have to kind of talk them down a little bit like, well, big fella, you know, you're only, there's only LeBrons every year or even maybe every decade, but let's, let's, let's grow you slowly.

What are your thoughts on that?

George: Yeah, well, the best part is, to your point, actually to your latter point, is they can grow at their own pace. Not necessarily slowly, but it's at their own pace. Number one. Two, these are all just options. The reality is we have certain requirements. This is what I love telling people.

We, we have, as an exchange, we have some requirements, right? There's criteria, checkpoints that you have to meet. You either meet them or you don't. So that's, that's the first reality. The second reality is. This is more external, so not the exchange itself, but when you want to raise capital, you're doing so from the street.

You know, whether it's through the help of an investment bank or a broker, ultimately they go to their high net worth clients, people who actually have the money, and they say, Hey, I have a great story. You know, Steph has an amazing business. Here's what it does. One, two, three, four. What do you think? Do 5 million bucks.

And that's a reality in and of itself, because You know, some investors might come back and say, listen, love stuff, but it's just not, not for us at the moment. It's too small, or they can come back and say, that's exactly what we're looking for. Actually, let's raise them 10 million bucks. We're even more excited.

This is exactly what the Canadian markets need. So there's that reality as well, which we always have to figure out and gauge. So the best part is it's a, it's a litmus test of what's possible. And the best part is our, our sort of platform in Canada offers these two exchanges. For companies at different stages in their lifestyle.

Instead of forcing a smaller company to go public on a much larger exchange, it becomes very difficult to get the same visibility, the exposure that one needs when they are on a public platform. You know, so those are some of the things to consider is which exchange is right? Am I actually at the right fit?

Have I, you know, have I thought about the right considerations here? Before making that move, because it is a commitment. I'm not going to lie. It's, you know, there are some sort of hurdles you have to go through. It's not, it's not the easiest process, just like any capital raising process. So it has to be the right one for the, for the company.

Stephen: Do you see a lot of companies now looking to go public versus, you know, is that kind of the next iteration after they get maybe private investment you've invested in? I think we both invested in, sir. Actually, probably you earlier than me, so we see the value investing in private, especially here in Canada where they don't have, you know, those strict, you know, requirements that they do in the U.S. where you have to have, you know, where you have to be an accredited investor. Do you see a lot of companies rather, you know, either going, you know, Bootstrapping or seeking private investment instead of going public or as public, kind of like the NBA championships to kind of use our metaphor. And private is still kind of like just in the playoffs to you.

George: Yeah. I think from, from the U S perspective, it definitely seems more like the playoffs, at least to me, right. It, it seems, you know, in Chicago we had a Tempest AI go public more recently, which was great for the Chicago ecosystem. It's great for the U S markets in general. And I, I think what you see in the U S more typically is companies wait a little longer until they're larger before they tap into the public markets.

And that is typically for a couple of reasons. It's because. There are heavier cost considerations. It's a bit more expensive to go public here. There are more regulatory considerations. So they not only have to get, you know, sort of spend more time getting ready beforehand, but also just the nature of being public in the U.S. You know, especially post Sarbanes Oxley, like there's more. There's more guidelines that that's placed on public companies in the U. S. It's not that that's not the same in Canada, but because of these two different platforms, you know, we still, there's, there's a lot of rigor placed on companies, but the requirements are made such that they're more reasonable for the stage of company that you're at.

So for example, an early stage company going public on TSX Venture needs two years of audits versus three years on, on TSX when they file their quarterly You know, they have a bit more time on the TSX venture to make those filings versus the TSX. So there's a couple of nuances there. So I think for us in Canada, that's why back to that statement, like we don't really view it as an exit.

It's more of a growth platform. We want to see companies start on TSX Venture, graduate at TSX, do a list on NASDAQ and NYSE. We want to see it as part of their growth, not necessarily like the, basically like the last step in your growth. So I think that's the biggest difference, honestly, from what I see in the U.S. is focus on late stage, successful, you know, already sort of seasoned companies that have already raised So, you know, there's tons of capital beforehand, whereas in Canada, it could be part of your growth trajectory.

Stephen: You mentioned Tempest AI, you know, we had Hut8, which is a Bitcoin mining and, you know, data center operation, I believe, recently listed and went public.

What are some other notable companies that, you know, you're like, Oh, that's really interesting. Or. That was good for the exchange to give it more exposure. And what are some companies you're like, Hey, you know, they're in the TSX. They're interesting to me. It's not investment advice, but they're just interesting because of maybe the time we're in, the generation we're in with AI, Metaverse and other emerging technologies.

George: Yeah. Well, maybe, maybe I'll speak to, to one. I recently helped a public here actually in Chicago. So this was not too long ago. It's a company called Fresh, The Fresh Factory. So their ticker is FRSH. You know, I think it's a, it's a very interesting business. I think they're interesting because they're in, they're sort of an industrial company or vertically integrated platform that helps brands go from farm to shelf.

So really cool platform because if you think about it, like let's say you and I wanted to create a hummus dip, you know, originally Middle Eastern. So hummus is a staple in my fridge. If you and I wanted to create a dip, well, Fresh Factory helps us do everything from sourcing the ingredients, making sure they're clean doing the, the packaging, the labeling, and making sure it's a clean label.

A lot of what you're seeing now, not only clean ingredients, clean sourcing, but also clean labeling. And then there's the distribution as well, so that we can get it to the shelves of the likes of Whole Foods or Jewel Oscars or whatever, you know, distributor you want in the US. So I think it's a, it's a really neat business.

And it was exciting to, to be You know, sort of on the part of, or on the process of their, their go public on the TSX venture. So I think we've done, we've done well in the food and Bev space in general. Especially in Chicago, cause it's a bit of a hub here. And I'd say yes, some companies like that.

It's exciting for me because these are also companies that, you know, benefit from, from being on a public platform while they're still sort of growing companies. And it's always more exciting when it's a CPG business. Because, you know, I walk into a grocery store and I'm like, Hey, you know, I know this company I know that they're listed and it's kind of cool to see their products day in and day out.

Not that innovation companies aren't cool, but a bit of a different swagger.

Stephen: That's so, that's so interesting. What have you seen over like, or maybe what are some of the impact of things like an election year in the U. S. or, you know, the last two years? What happens when all the markets are down around the world?

How does that impact the TSX as a company, as a brand, operationally? Like, how do you, obviously, the markets being up is a great thing for everyone. What happens when the markets are down and companies may not meet the requirements? Or, you know, companies might have to be delisted in some instances. Can you give us like an overview of what happens behind the scenes on your side?

George: Yeah, it's um I mean, the past two or three years, it's no surprise, right? And this was global. It's not just the Canadian front. You know, it's been, it's been challenging from a market perspective. Especially if you look at new IPOs, like the volumes are down. I think we're in a bit of a better market this year.

You know, there, there's some turnaround for sure, especially on the financing side for listed issuers. So companies that are already public, we're seeing a bit more. Financings that they're doing, that they're generating. And that, that's a healthier sign. I think it's always tricky, you know, because you're sort of balancing.

And I'll speak for myself. Like I'm, I I'm personally attached to a lot of the companies that I ended up working with. I want them to succeed. It's in my best interest. It's in the. Exchange is best interest. It's in their best interest. We want these companies and these case studies to do extremely well and to thrive because then when we go on podcasts and there's nothing better for me than to talk them up, you know, and to highlight them and to show the great work that they're doing.

And in some cases, the reality is they'll face challenges for several different reasons. Sometimes it's market related. Sometimes it's company related. Sometimes it's geopolitical. So there are a number of different factors that can lead to these things. You know, from a delisting perspective, there is a certain reality that there may come a time where it's in the best interest of the company to no longer be listed.

And we have to, we would never, I would say, dissuade a company from doing something that's best for them. Right. You know, it's not great for the exchange, but it may be more beneficial for the company.

We have an amazing company services team too, by the way. That when a company is listed, they work hand in hand to make sure that, Hey, are you leveraging all the resources that we have internally?

The workshops, the, you know, the different activities from a podcast, social media channels, the outreaches, the investor events. Are you leveraging as much of that as you can? How else can we help from the investor relations perspective? You know, and once all that's covered, we try to do that and try to stay very, very close. But you know, there are situations where companies are very successful. Others when they're when they're not. We've also seen some cases where companies have gone private. You know, from being public and sometimes those are successful, take privates and sometimes they're not. There aren't many situations of that, which we can control.

I would say what we do best is just trying to support companies, man.

Stephen: I love that. How many people take that like resources advice? Like your customers, you know, your customer support is like, Hey, you can do this. But it's just like, when you get money from a scholarship or a grant, you're like, give me the money.

I don't want to go to the workshops or webinars. Have you seen that actually be useful? The companies that do take that seriously and do take your advice. You see maybe, you know, whether it's marginal improvement or you just see that they're just better supported through the whole process and they don't have to reach out as much because they're there getting that information constantly from your team and being around probably other companies that are going through or are currently going through the same process.

George: I would say so for sure, right? Cause if you look at it from, from different perspectives, like on the, I'm on the business development side, so new listings, we have one of the most global business development teams, you know, from the exchanges perspective. So I'm in Chicago. We have a colleague in California.

We have another in Dallas. Covering the West Coast, the South. All three of us are in the U. S. We have an office in Brazil an office in London, in Israel. And we just opened an office in Australia. So we're really global. The cool part from, from our vantage point is we help companies when they're looking to go public, get access to the Canadian markets.

And I always, you know, joke, it's like my, my job is really to reduce their headaches in terms of knowing who to, who to connect to. Who are the right lawyers, the right bankers, the right auditors for the size and vertical of the company. We're doing all of that work in the backend. Once the company's listed, we're still close, right?

Cause I'm in Chicago now. So I sponsor and I partner with a lot of community events and ecosystem initiatives, and I try to loop in our network. So that's from the new listing side. From the company services, they do an outstanding job. And if you look at who is actually on the company services side, these are former IR professionals.

They used to work for public companies in the IR space, so they understand it really well. And they do workshops like, covering topics like governance this, how to disclose properly when you have a material events, you know, within the business or a significant change. How do you represent that? How do you, how do you make sure to comply, you know, to the regulations, especially helpful by the way, for companies that have never gone public.

Right. That's why we have. Yeah, that's why we have that kind of a support, you know, so that's from the company services. They also really help you understand the strategic part of investor relations, not just like putting out press releases and marketing, but how do you actually understand who's investing in your stock?

Who's selling? Who should you reach out to if you're not reaching out to them already? What kind of events should you put together to bring the steps of the world so that they can invest in your business? You know, so we do a lot of that, that kind of I would say guidance and. You know, another benefit for why, when early stage companies go public, we understand their, their, the nature of where they're at.

These aren't multi billion dollar companies on the TSX venture. You know, the average market gap is 30 to 40 million. So these are very much growing companies and they're spending a ton of time running a business. And at the same time, that business is now public, so they have a very different reality.

And we try to make sure that that is as seamless and smooth as possible.

Stephen: And I'm assuming when they go public, they have to watch certain things they say about numbers, like you can't just talk freely like a private company can about numbers, you know, you have to kind of cross reference, I'm assuming a lot of different things when you're public, a lot of things that people probably don't think about.

George: Of course, of course. Yeah, there's, you know, like my my colleague, Delilah. Panyo, who's similar role based in California, and as I said, covers the West Coast. She has, she coined the term, the four Rs. So I always give her props. And I you know, I always joke with her. I'm like, you're the OG of the four Rs.

You know, and what the four Rs stand for, it's a great summary actually, for anyone ever considering this the, the first R we kind of touched upon is the reality. What does the actual reality of me as a CEO of a company to go public? The reality of, hey, do I meet the requirements from the exchange perspective?

But also the reality of, can I get the capital I'm looking for at the valuation I'm looking to meet it at? So that's the reality piece. The readiness, right? The readiness is really important. Do you understand what, The readiness requirements are on you, right? And that can be as easy as just speaking to someone at the exchange, like, Hey, what do I, what do I need to do here?

Do I have the right team of advisors on my side? So that's the readiness part. The third is reason. You know, so do you really have a good reason to go public? Some of, and this is honestly like actually a really important one. Some of the more common, I would say reasons are certainly I'm looking to raise some growth capital, right?

And you can raise different types of capital based on what exchange you, you list on. TSX Venture typically, as we said, kind of the two to 20 million range. TSX is really 40 to 50 million plus some M& A currency, right? So if you're public, Steph, you have some shares. That now you can use this currency to go and acquire other companies.

As we know, inorganic growth is, is quite important. Some of the other reasons are like visibility, exposure, the credibility you get, because people know now you went through this diligence stage. You know, you pass the exchange, you pass the commission. Like we, we did some work to make sure that everything checks out.

You know, and the last piece is the requirements, as we said you know, these are, this is more of the. Maybe not so fun part, but the requirements are also not just about from the exchanges perspective, but cost, time. Do you understand the requirements incurred? And typically the timeline is about six to 12, I would say, to budget comfortably.

Stephen: Six to 12 months. That's what's going to be my next question. This sounds bigger, quite a rigorous and vigorous process. But yeah, if you want that kind of stamp of approval, do you see a lot of ego involved too, where people are like wanting to say that they, like how, you know, private companies say they exited.

Do you see a lot of people are like, yeah, I want to say that I'm going public so I can tell, you know, my, my buddies from Stanford down the street that, you know, we're public here on the TSX. Do you see a lot of that? I

George: mean, I think for sure it helps, right? It's, it's, it's definitely a, a, a fun statement and a nice statement to make, especially if the company is doing well.

You know, it's, it's nice for a couple of reasons because it's you know, companies who are going through the process understand that there are some, you know, considerations involved and they have to do the right work to make sure that they comply with everything to go public. It sounds intimidating, honestly, upfront, but it's, To me, at least having seen it a couple of times now, really upfront, it's, it's just administrative and, and for any founders listening who have raised growth capital, it's not extremely different from what a series B or series C looks like.

I think there are some obvious differences when you, especially the reality of when you become a public company Number one, number two, not all CEOs are necessarily made to be a public company CEO, private company CEO is different than a public company CEO, because some of the things you will be asked to do are just different.

And so you have to be okay with that. You also have to be good at that, you know, to sort of know how to articulate a story in terms of what the public wants to hear. And, and, you know, kind of enjoy doing that part of the work because if you don't, you'll sort of be miserable and not everybody likes to be the front facing, you know, evangelist of the business, constantly talking to the market about what they're doing and some of the exciting stuff ahead. So yeah, I would say it's definitely a band of, or sorry, a badge of. of hopefully a badge of honor in the sense of like, Hey, I was able to meet this milestone. And by the way, that's why we have this celebratory, you know, opening or closing of the market, which is in the heart of Toronto's downtown. And it's, I was there a week ago now during collision, we hosted a U S delegation.

We came in and sort of did a market open it's live on BNN. I mean, that's an exciting thing. And for us, that's kind of, a ceremony, if you will, you know, to, to, to commemorate a lot of. The hard work that you've put in to get to this stage, but also celebrating what's to come.

Stephen: Can anyone get on those, like, you know, ring the bell and, you know, a New York Stock Exchange, or do you have to be like, reach that milestone?

Is it only for companies that have gone public? Or if you're like, Hey, we're doing cool stuff. We want to pay a couple dollars. Can we get a little advertisement by ringing the bell? How does that work there?

George: Yeah. So generally it is mostly reserved for, for when companies do go public or sometimes we celebrate their anniversaries if they're, if they've been listed for, for a long time.

In other cases, it's kind of special situations like, you know, I was hosting a U S business that, but delegation of founders and investors that flew in for to be there that week, some to attend the conference, others were just in Toronto. So that was kind of just to celebrate a milestone, but there obviously was a connection to TSX.

Also specifically through, through us in other cases, it's celebrating charities or, or giving more exposure to important causes. that we care about and that represent our brand and that we want to be behind. So it could be for some of those reasons, but it's, it's, it's not necessarily public in the sense that anybody can just, you know, book the room and do a market.

Stephen: You know, Airdropd, I'm trying to see where I can squeeze my way on. I interviewed someone at TSX, let's ring the bell tomorrow guys come on.

George: We'll try to make it work. We'll try to make it work.

Stephen: Now we've seen a lot of growth in the markets. The markets are hot right now for the most part. I haven't checked today, but you know, over the last week, it was really hot. We have people coming out like JP Morgan, the executive saying, Hey, like we can expect like 23 percent of these markets are going to go down.

It's kind of inflated. What are your thoughts around that? Like the market, I know you're not giving an investment advice, but you know, when people are kind of saying like, Hey guys, everyone should back up and start being a little bit more reasonable. Or do you think like, let the markets be what they are?

We see these pundits, whether the markets are up and down. What are your thoughts on that?

George: Well, I'm never, I'm never one to, to, to make predictions, to be honest. I think from my vantage point, like the way I see it, you know, being now in the Midwest, I actually think there's a lot of good opportunities, you know, especially for my role, what I focus on. And that's really what I always try to tell myself.

There's always sort of noise around me, right? There's always these variables that, oh, the market that caused the market to go up, it caused the market to go down. I mean, they're, they're not levers that I control. So, and I think most people can read the thousand articles on inflation and the interest rates and unemployment and, you know, like in the U S.

Yes, they, you know, the reports now like, yes, the indices are up, but only a handful of companies are driving it. Okay, this is all great. What I tend to focus on Steph is, is making sure that we're building I would say a solid pipeline of companies that know we exist. That's important to me. Do they even know we're an option?

I'm passionate about making sure companies and founders understand all of their financing options on the menu. When you receive a menu. If all you see on it is one traditional source of capital, maybe, you know, maybe it's great. Maybe it's not like maybe you're, you're deferring an eye on other options that are actually better for the business.

So that's my first part. The second is, you know, in let's say turbulent market, which in reality we're in I'm also focused on how do we use the resources that we have, this ecosystem of 3, 500 companies. Market of about 4. 2 trillion. How do we use that ecosystem that we have at TSX and be helpful to companies on the come up because they might be too early to go public now, they might not want to go public today, but maybe two, three years, they will be.

And so how do you play that long game while trying to be of service to them. How do you create value for them now? And actually, for anyone listening, this is a bit of a hack, but if you're in Biz Dev or, you know, in a market expansion role, in a quote unquote down market, or if that's being perceived as a down market, it's actually the best time to be active.

It's the best time to play offense in my opinion, because when everybody retracts, if you have the ability or the capacity through a budget, through resources, through connections, through your network to play offense and be present and show up. And put events in your community and your ecosystem that wins you the, in my opinion, the best currency.

And so that's what I'm trying to do now.

Stephen: I love that because, and I think you're so right, right? When everyone's kind of worrying about themselves and their jobs, if you can kind of say, Hey, I'm just going to go out and be of service. And I think people remember not only is it great, But people remember during the hard times, who was reaching out to them, who was, you know, comforting them, who was providing value or extra resources.

Because when the market gets hot, those same people that were struggling now have options, and you want to be the top of the mind.

I do want to talk about, we just like skim past your VP, the youngest VP, I believe in TMX Group. History. Anyone listening to this would think, you know, this is a 45 year old, he's been in the industry for a long time, you're smooth, you're, you know, you're polished, you're well spoken, but you're the youngest person to become a VP at the TMX Group.

Talk about that, because I've listened to you, even on your podcast early on, and you've been very clear on your intention and, you know, the sacrifice that you want to put in to building your career. I think that'll be helpful for all the youngsters listening to this. Take us through your journey, your kind of process, maybe even your goal setting.

Was it a goal to be the youngest VP or is it kind of like, you're getting kind of closer, you're like, Hey, I got a couple of years on the record holder. Let me really dive into this.

George: Yeah, yeah, for sure. To your point, I look 45, but I'm actually 30. And I don't know, I have to actually check if in history, but certainly on the, on the capital formations, like within our business development team you know, nonetheless, titles are titles.

I think for me, it's, it's, it's honestly like what I'm, what I'm proud of, what I'm grateful for is to have an opportunity where I can make an impact. So early in my career, I think that's actually the way I look at it. Not necessarily that I'm, you know, this young with this kind of a title, even though it sounds cool.

You know, I think for me Steph is, is the fact that I, I, I've, I've just tried to make the best, With the circumstances I've had. I think that's, that's what I've always tried to do. Like I've always tried to work really, really hard. I've tried to put myself in positions where whatever my sort of whatever my strengths were there, they're at the forefront.

I never sort of, you know, lingered and said, Oh man, I have so many weaknesses and I can't do this. And I really understood the things that I wasn't good at. I knew very, very early on. So I think the one thing that helped me was a lot of self awareness. I was very critical of myself. But I also grew up in the Middle East where 90 percent of my family live.

Many of them still are in Lebanon. You know, a country I love, but it's also constantly sort of war torn. And I think growing up in that reality and visiting almost every year during summers and seeing, you know, just, I guess the reality that, that my family had kept pushing me. More and more constantly.

Like it was never, there was never a time where I wasn't pushing to strive for something better.

And I, I almost always felt a bit of a guilt and, and the guilt came because, you know, we, we immigrated to Canada and my parents fought really hard to, to, to make us Canadian citizens and, you know, a chance at a better future.

And I think the guilt, to be honest with you, man, is I felt like this kind of very heavy responsibility to do something with, you know, This opportunity, I felt like if I was my cousin looking at me and this guy, you know, you're living in Canada, you have all of this access, amazing education, you open up LinkedIn and you can meet at a Starbucks and meet a guy like Steph Stephen, and you get the opportunity to get on a podcast and, you know, get more exposure for your personal brand and the company you present.

Like, do you understand what, what that means? You understand what that can create? And so I started seeing the, the world, I started seeing my career with a lens of. Infinite opportunities. Infinite. Everything to me was an opportunity. You know, and I'm not saying, you know, to, to, to go and do everything all the time.

You want to be selective, of course.

But that's initially what I started doing early in my career. I started saying yes to everything. I started meeting as many people at TMX as I could. Everyone from, you know, a junior to a managing director. I started having a ton of coffees. I started my own podcast.

I started a company. Like, I tried to do as many things as I could with the time I had and I think that just propelled me, to be honest.

Stephen: And, you know, he talked about LinkedIn. You're not there as much now, but you were the guy on LinkedIn. If everyone wants to, you know, see how I know so much about George, George was out there, George was active as the young kids would say talk about that though.

You talked about, you know, starting your own company.

You talked about, and then I want to go in and talk about your podcast and all the amazing guests you've had, but talk about like going that entrepreneur route and what you learned there, like, has that helped you when speaking to now other entrepreneurs?

Trying to get listed on the TSX or the Venture Exchange.

George: I think so. Much like you, like I, you know, you're, you're, you're definitely someone I also admire, by the way. And I think you've done a tremendous job to carve out, you know, the sort of the media space and In a vertical that's regulated and doesn't really understand new media, as well as someone like you do.

You, yeah, you do. Both technical and kind of social media. So very fond of you for that. I appreciate it. You know, and, and like you, man, I've always tried to do stuff on the side during my career. I've always like, how do you fill kind of the gap and how do you keep that creative element going, you know?

I, I think that like, hopefully with people listening, you, you don't necessarily have to, to, to want to be an artist full time. You don't, if, if you have this sort of itch to, to unleash like a creative element, you can still work at a stock exchange and start a podcast. You know, I always wanted to, to try to show people that like it's, I'm able to turn a passion project into something meaningful.

Like I started, let's grab coffee almost five or six years ago. Nobody. I was an associate at the time. At the same time, I also started BookBack, which is, I think, what you're, what you're referring to.

And, you know, this was a startup that helped specifically university students buy and sell books. You know, it came about because two friends of mine are sort of software engineers, very, very, very.

Super smart, very seasoned. And they had this like software development agency. They kind of just spun out apps for fun, honestly. And we sort of came together. I thought about this idea while I was on a plane on a BD trip to, to one of the conference or something. I didn't have an iPad, no TV. So I was really bored and I started sketching out things that we could build.

One of them was that, so we gave it a go. We, we tried our best to, to sort of launch this, make it happen. Couple of lessons came up, came out. Eventually you have to quit and do this full time. That was for sure like a vivid experience. And I kind of knew this to be honest, but I think for me, what helped is I'm not a technical founder.

So for me, it was really helpful to, you know, use some of the free time I had once I finished my full, you know, the, the day, I mean. Post full time work to go through the wireframes. How do you develop an app? I was honestly so curious. I had no idea dude I was like, how do you actually get an app on the App Store?

How does that even work? How do you get it on the App Store and then the Google Store or the Play Store, you know? What sort of functions and requirements do you how do you decide? What words do you have on each screen you be you get? So detailed and so focused on, on the minutiae that it was so cool to go through and then to get it live on the app store, to get some users, to get feedback.

I just thought that was so exciting. It didn't end up going anywhere, but I think the best learning, we didn't raise any money. It was all self funded. We had a couple of thousand users, so it was fun. Like I honestly, I, I think I did it mostly for learnings to go through some of the hardship. I definitely grew more empathy for founders.

And part of it was that I was talking to CEOs. I still do all the time.

You know, and back then I was in my like early twenties and I felt, certainly felt heavy imposter syndrome. I'm like, who the hell am I to be talking to, you know, a 40 year old, a 50 year old CEO about going public. Like madness, you know what I mean?

How that I'm not qualified, you know, that's how I felt for most of my career. And I think that's what kept pushing me to do more and more is that heavy imposter syndrome that eventually I was like, George, you know what? No, you do deserve a seat. Like you're here. You were, you were chosen to, to, to be in this role for a reason.

So you better start acting like it.

Stephen: I like that mentality. I think a lot of people, you know, especially, you know, I know a lot of women founders, consultants that go through that imposter syndrome. And I think. You're right, until you tell yourself that, hey, I'm here, someone put me here, so I have to trust the person that put me here, knew what they were doing.

Why couldn't that app have gone further? Was it like, hey, we'd have to hire a CEO, or was it like, hey guys, we're just doing this for fun, I don't want to invest my life savings or my own money into this and we're helping people. I remember using that app, I think, because, you know, I think that was one of the biggest problems when you're in school.

Books are expensive. People use it for like three weeks, three months, maybe. Sometimes they don't even use it. They buy it and they're like, they dropped the class. So what happens to the book? Was there anything, was the schools doing anything? Like I know sometimes they would say, Hey, you have to use an updated version of this book or that book.

What were some of your thoughts there that, or isn't that an idea that could still work in your mind?

George: Maybe, maybe it could, like, I have to give it some more thought. I think now knowing all the things I know. I think I would approach, I think I just, I would approach the whole process very differently, you know, because this was sort of an idea that was brewing, but it wasn't like a burning pain point.

Stephen: Right.

George: Nor was it honestly something I was extremely passionate about. I love books, clearly. I, I was very close to my, Still very close to the University of Ottawa, now Schulich and Kellogg after post MBA. So always kind of close to educational institutions. So I had a really deep network. So I figured I had an arbitrage to help this scale.

And I certainly had some strong network effects that You know, helped it kind of get quick momentum. But I think that was, that was maybe the, the one challenge stuff is that it wasn't like a, a mission critical pain point that, that really, really inked at me or that I felt that there was enough market consensus, you know, and the second piece honestly was, you know, books were starting to be very digitized.

True. Very quickly. So I just saw it was like a declining market. And if you're, you know, if you're going to raise capital, having a large enough market and market that you can grab specifically for your business, super important, you know, figuring out how, especially if it's an app and if it's a marketplace how do you create not just like having, having a strategic anchor, let's say like I, I have a good network within my university.

That's part of it. But how do you get buyers and sellers quickly on the platform? So, a quick example I always love is, you know, LinkedIn is a good example of this marketplace, but when it first launched, it actually was, it ran into a lot of challenges. And the reason it did was, let's say you and I are friends, okay, and we text on iMessenger.

Then I tell you, hey, Sarge, there's a new platform called LinkedIn, sign up. And you're like, why? I'm like, well, so you can talk to me. And you're like, yep, George, we're already best friends. Like, why would I have you on iMessenger? I don't need, I can call you up, dude. Right. And you're like, no, no, no, I get it, but you can meet more people.

So LinkedIn had a lot of trouble initially with that. Their hack to scale that network effect was enabling your address book. Once you enabled your address book and you basically uploaded your, my contacts. You now could meet people in my network you, you never met before you did the same. So the multiplier effect was tenfold.

So anyways, figuring out that, you know, how do you keep, if it's an app, the other big consideration is stickiness. Getting people to your app is one thing like downloading it up

Stephen: on a regular basis, only buy books, maybe once, twice a year is always tricky, right?

George: Exactly. So some earnings, but it was fun.

Stephen: Something that was more successful, I think, than even the app was your podcast. You're interviewing some of the biggest CEOs of Starbucks. David's Tea, which I think is Canadian. Maybe now I think of it. I thought it was Canadian. Maybe that's North American overall. And even Netflix. Talk about those learnings.

Because you were in like, you were competing at the height of, you know, some of the LinkedIn's best having podcasts and you were going pound for pound with some of those big podcasts and bringing on a lot of great guests. What was that like? What do you think about podcasting now that you kind of stepped, not stepped away, but you're looking back maybe four years ago when it was like really popular to have a podcast on LinkedIn and there was what seemed to be only a fear, a few clear winners, especially, you know, distributing on LinkedIn.

What are your thoughts on the podcast?

George: I, I love the podcast space. I mean, I'm, I'm a sucker for podcast myself. I'm, I'm a. Listener slash user of several different podcasts. I still have mine. I still host it. It's called Let's Grab Coffee. I took a bit of a break last year because I was enrolled in this executive MBA.

So it was sort of partitioning my time, but yeah, I've been doing it for, for almost seven years now. So I started it very early. This was kind of, mid 2016. You know, I was an associate at TMX. I just started my career out of university and I'm sitting there and I'm like, I think I started realizing, I actually don't know how this all happened, to be honest with you.

I think naturally I always love meeting people. I'm a curious person when it comes to people's stories. So in fact, I, I like interviewing more than being interviewed. Generally speaking, cause I'm, I'm just curious. Like if we go for coffee. You'll probably realize at one point, you're like, George, stop asking me questions, you know, enough about me.

Like, I want to know about you. I often get that kind of response. I've always liked like, late shows, you know, I, there was something that growing up, I, I would literally sit there and just watch and Admire, but also trying to mimic like how they, you know, how they come in with jokes and, and kind of the, the, the smoothness of a conversation that really appealed to me, you know, and how do you warm up to someone and how do you build that report in an hour when it's recorded?

So anyways, all these things came together. I would, I would, especially as an, as an associate, I'd always send an email with the subject line being, let's grab coffee. Like, Hey Steph, let's meet for 30 minutes. I'd love to, I'd love to meet you. You know, I just want to get to know you, just 30 minutes, if you're okay with it, coffee on me, always.

I would always try to be the one that buys the coffee. So, that's how it started. I then, two of my closest friends, two of my best friends are engineers. One of them was my roommate. At the end of each day I'd go and, you know, Hi, how was your day? What did you get up to? Who did you meet? And I'd always tell him, and he'd be like, dude, you have such an exciting career.

What the, why, how do you get to do, to do all this? And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, you can do it too. He's like, yeah, I know. But you know, like an engineer, we don't really teach us how to network and go to events and conferences. Like it's a bit of a different environment. He's like, honestly, you should like, do you ever think about recording?

Like, I'd love to hear what you guys talk about. And I'm like, really? You'd actually be interested in that. And he's like, yeah, why? I mean, it doesn't cost you anything. Just like put a record in front of you or something. I figure it out. And that's actually what, honestly, the premise that led to it. I figured that it's almost selfish for me to have all these connections and not give it out to my community.

I mean, we're talking anyways, let's talk about some, some cool things you want to talk about. Let's put it out. It's great for you. Cause you get more visibility. Your thought leadership is out there. It's great for me because I'm more present. Thank you. Right. And I'm giving something versus taking, you know, so yeah.

Stephen: As a host, that's all, you know, a lot of podcasts I've started. That was the reason I'm like, I'm having all this information instead of me having to repeat in individual conversations who I talked to and what was interesting. Let me just put it out there. And whoever's interested, I think I'm going to go back to that one episode that you had with, I think it was director X who's you know, did hotline bling among other things.

And I remember messaging you right after I listened to that podcast, Because it started off, he was very much, I think he was talking about mental health, and that was kind of his angle. And you would start off the conversation, try to lighten up, talk about, you know, his directorial accomplishments, and he was very standoffish.

I'm like, oh, any other podcast host would have been dead in the water. But you were able to navigate that conversation, bring it back to something that he was really interested in and really got him to open up. Can you think of any other memorable conversations where you're like, Oh, this was just such a better podcast than I could have imagined, or, Hey man, this one almost died, or maybe I was off my game this time, because I still think that was one of my favorite episodes out of any podcast I've listened to.

Because I was like, Oh, that host had, there was a thin line. He had to like thread the needle, like Tom Brady, because it almost sounded like he was going to leave the podcast. So like complete, like, Oh, wow. You controlled the conversation. And it turned out to why I thought it was one of your better podcasts and, you know, with just a great person altogether.

George: Yeah, you know, and, and I certainly learned a lot from that podcast, for sure. There are, there are many things I could have done better. I think I was really excited to, to talk about the, like, honestly, like personally, I was excited. Just to add, because it's not something you get access to a lot, you know, I almost wanted to be like, how is, how is Drake like in person, you know, when you worked with, with other big names like Jay Z, Kanye, like, how were they, were they hard?

You know, do you ever get nervous? Like, I really wanted to go there. And the creative element and how do you put these songs together? And when, when you're directing how do you orchestrate that? Cause you're leading it and you're leading it with like other, you know, out, like these are massive brand names.

Like, don't you get nervous? So anyways, I kind of wanted to go there and, and maybe too, from the ego perspective, I thought that the episode would get more flair if it went there. But I think he, he was much more passionate and still is to talk about, you know, meditation and breathing work. And after an incident that happened to him, he was shot in a club, basically.

And while he was in a hospital, it was sort of compelled him to understand why this person, a random person came and shot him and, and, you know, how meditation can, can help a lot of people. Younger individuals get in a better mind state which hopefully leads to less crimes and incarcerations. So I think he really wanted to, and I felt it.

And I think part of your job as a, as an interviewer, let's say our conversationalist is not to overstretch your authority. It's not my, my authority is really only to help give him a platform for something he wants to talk about. I'm the one who asked him to do the podcast. It's not the other way around.

Yeah. The, the tough part, sometimes stuff like in that segment, you know, That was the first time I ever met him. We've never spoken before that, like we interchanged maybe one email. It's, it's, he's kind of a tough person that I couldn't get like an hour of a prep. It was like show up. And so I'm also a

Stephen: huge guest. First of all, I think anyone should be proud to be able to get him as a guest. And if you look back, he doesn't have. A ton of podcast interviews. It's not like he's out there doing the podcast tours. So I think that's what made it even that much better, is that you were able to manage such a great conversation.

Because it doesn't seem like this is what he does on a regular basis.

George: Yeah, yeah. So it's like sometimes you kind of have to, it's a bit of a dance in a conversation, you know, and you kind of have to feel each other out. And sometimes like we're feeling each other out while we're recording. So I'm like, okay, like in 20 minutes, I think, or something like that, I was like, George, back off basically.

And I've already stretched it thin. Like I thought I kept pushing, pushing, pushing. And I, his answers were very short. That's how you know, like if you're a seasoned, you know, interviewer, he wasn't very conversational about it. As soon as I asked about the other stuff, he was, I could, I couldn't even get a question in and I was like, perfect.

That's kind of where you want it. And so, yeah, that was an interesting one here. Here's a funny one. I'll tell you actually of another, I wouldn't, I don't call these failures, but a fun challenge. I was supposed to record with the CEO of Indochino, Drew Green. We ended up doing it, but this whole time, I, I called in my videographer.

He came in. We were actually going to record in the common area of my building. Beautiful view you know, sort of on the, on the rooftop. I call his EA and I'm like, Hey, where's Drew? And she's like, where's Drew? Like, this is a virtual podcast. And I'm like, no, it's not. Like this whole time we said it's in person.

I'm paying for this guy to be here, right? Like the videographer, the setup. She's like, George, Drew's in Vancouver. He's based in Vancouver. What are you talking about? I was like, Oh my God. So I hung up the phone. I'm like, we're going to have to reschedule, Drew. I call up my buddy, Cassie. Cassie, I, he's, he was, he is the startup of, of of a growing company in Toronto.

He was actually my classmate in Ottawa. So I call him up. I'm like, Cassie, I've always wanted to do a podcast with you. I don't want you to think this is like, You know, you're kind of the second.

Stephen: I want you to think you're second best, but I need you here in the next 10 minutes. Yeah, but like no preparation.

George: Yeah, I swear to God, this is exactly how it played out. I'm like zero prep, but listen, man, like we have an amazing setup. I think you'll, it'll benefit you a lot, hopefully. And I think actually it'll be a cool story about early stage and how do you grow revenue from zero to a million? He came through and dude, it was, it was actually a really good podcast.

I really enjoy talking to him and. So sometimes you have to, yeah, act under pressure, I think. And, and especially in the, sort of, don't panic. You know, stuff, stuff's going to come up.

Stephen: And the reason why I bring up that podcast and it wasn't to like call you out or anything, it was because I've seen a lot of podcasts go that exact way.

And the podcast hosts literally took those short answers all the way to the end of the conference. Like they wouldn't let up. They didn't kind of clue in that what the guest was trying to get to. And that was the whole conversation. And you know, I've seen a lot of those just, and you've probably listened to a lot of those like, that was podcast.

Whereas I think the host, and I think people think, you're just asking questions up there, how hard could it be? It's like, no, you're like listening as the other person is talking, but you have to listen not just to respond, but to kind of like dive down deep on what's interesting them. One thing I've seen through this whole, if I'm going to put on my like great podcasting host hat, one thing I've learned through this whole conversation is you have a lot of great friends.

You've met a lot of great people. What is, and I talked to you just before we pressed record about, you know, what is the benefits of an MBA?

And one thing you said is the people that you meet. I think we've kind of moved as a society away from traditional education. But just going on your journey, all these interesting people you met that you met as roommates, those are things that you can't even put a price tag on.

What would you say to someone that's like, Hey, forget this. I can just listen to Gary Vee or Alex Hormozy and read a book. I don't need traditional education. And you used to be, or maybe at some point you're like, I don't really need to go any further. Maybe give us the lay of the land as we're in this conversation is your thoughts about traditional education.

George: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, as you said, I actually, I used to be sort of, A public advocate of, of not needing an MBA, not getting it, you know, and sort of, yeah, I was more on the negative side of it, to be, to be very honest. And I still don't, I still think you don't necessarily need it. So, so that is an important clarification.

I don't think it's necessarily a requirement. For example, in my role right now, it's not a requirement. With or without it, doing what I do today, exactly. It wouldn't have, it wouldn't have A monumental impact, if I didn't get it, let's say, but I think it had a profound impact now that I do have it.

That's the difference. So it doesn't take anything away, but if you play it right, it only adds up. And that's kind of how I viewed it. I'm like, honestly, what am I losing from getting this? I'm spending the next two years learning. So a lot of it actually was perspective shift. And you kind of have to have a good perspective if you're committing the time, the money, the effort you know, the time management, especially personally, right.

Sort of newly married two years in and just personally for yourself, like you also don't want to be completely burnt out and miserable. And I was still working full time. I was doing this on the weekends. It's an executive MBA. It was a joint program between Northwestern Kellogg and York University Schulich.

So U.S. Canadian kind of program. Very cool. That's the best thing to do to me. I always describe things in a tagline. Like if I'm doing something big, I'm like, if this was a chapter, let's say, how do you, how do you define this? And for me, it was literally back to the lab. That's how I would define my MBA.

And it was a chance for me for the past two years to be in a classroom setting where it was safe to work on some of the things that I needed to work on with peers who were there to work on their. Their stuff, you know, safe, meaning I got constructive feedback all the fucking time. Sorry. I don't know if I can swear on them.

Stephen: I don't think, I don't think I've swore on them many times.

George: We can beep it out maybe, but whatever. You know, I think that was the best part is like, I, I, I was able to every single time we went into class, maybe it was something on the leadership side. Maybe it was technical. I had a bit of time to be heads down and really try to tweak certain things I knew personally, deep down.

I needed to tweak. In my personal profile, my aptitude, my capabilities, my technical capacity, there are things that I needed to work on. The second best part is you're in a classroom setting specifically for the EMBA. You're with people who, our average age in the class was about 38. I was the youngest person along with a fellow friend of mine. You know, we're 38, 40. That, that's the average age. There's about 50 of us in the class. Everybody's manager up. You have CEOs, you have someone leading a sales team of about 400 people. So just the class conversation, and sometimes even the back and forth, you know, you're going to be challenged on certain views.

If you have them, they're coming at you. Like, no, I don't think that's, that's, you know, the perspective I have. And here's why. And no, actually, I think you're wrong. And here's the evidence I have, you know, so it's a lot of this like back and forth that was cool. And the final part here, here's the biggest thing I want people to take away.

Because I never understood this. I'm sure you've heard, you know, one of the best reasons to get an MBA is the network, correct? I'm going to completely change your, your view on this. It's not a network. It's if you get an MBA you are going to come out of it with 50 new lifetime friends. Easy. I guarantee you.

And the reason that there's a difference, a network, a network, let's say if you, you are a network, that means to me, I met you at a conference. I said hi to you and we spoke for five minutes and I added you on LinkedIn. That's not what I'm talking about. In an MBA program, you're together for two years. And life is happening with or without you.

Some people had you know, kids during the program. Some people's partners got pregnant during the program. A few folks within our cohort lost a family member. You know, life happens. Up or down. And you're together during this whole time. You're working. Everyone's stressed, man. People are burnt out.

They're tired. Keep in mind, like, we have a full week. Some of us were traveling in for classes. Then you have full day Friday, full day Saturday, full day Sunday. Wow. Every third weekend. And then you, on Monday, you wake up and you're at it. And so only the 50 of us understood what that was like. Right. And so anyways, yeah, you create very deep seated you know, very meaningful relationships that No amount of money could place on it.

You know, it's not a small investment, but I think to me, health, education, family are always the best investments you can make. I don't put a, it's not a cost to me, basically.

Stephen: It's an investment. I love, I love the aspect of it. What would be your tagline going forward? You just finished your MBA, you know, your thriving marriage.

What would be that tagline? If I said, Hey, George, September, you know, 2024, what's going to be your tagline going forward, do you think?

George: Ooh, this is a good one. Honestly, I think I would say aim high with patience, you know, meaning that where I'm at now in my career is I understand the next, you know, 10 or 20 years, or this is kind of where you, you press the foot to the pedal, you know, it's really go time and you got to push, push and try to really make the best of what you have.

So the aim high is, is not to be scared of taking the risk to grow the platform even more. Not to have limits, like let it, let go of it. Let go of control of what it could be. Just push. And see what happens at the same time, have the patience that, you know, I am still on the younger side and I think we have a lot of life God willing to live and hopefully a healthy one.

And so have the patience that the next steps ahead might not be the destination, but it's like the puzzle piece that builds the bridge that gets me there. And I think that's what I really want to do ideally with some social impact and some good stuff on the side.

Stephen: I love that. I've already taken up too much of your time.

I want to ask you, because we've talked a little bit, you're in the sales business development. You've also been on LinkedIn, so you've seen kind of the, what we would say, a lack of etiquette when it comes to sales or aggressive sales tactics. What is your advice to people either doing their own founder led sales or somebody that's running a BDR or sales part of their department?

What's one thing that you've learned? Because I think you're one of those salespeople is that people would be happy to give you the money because, you know, they've created this bond. You're not really trying to sell them. You're more educating them to make the right decision. What have you learned about sales and what would you be like one key piece of advice?

They're kind of slowed down. Maybe some of these people are seeing the sales bros or sales girls on Instagram Yelling at people and you know, supposedly closing deals every day

George: Yeah, yeah and and you know to preface I'm not in product sales like I'm not in tech sales sort of If you, if you, if you were to use a sales, it's like more relationship selling because this is more of a service in some ways. But nonetheless, I think that the biggest thing for me that's always worked out is I genuinely care about my relationships, both for my personal reputation, but also for other people. And I think genuinely caring is important because if you genuinely care, it means you're going to do a couple of things.

You're going to understand your product and service better than anyone, any good sales or business person knows their product. As inside out as possible. You might not be the most technical, but you understand it well enough so that you're not funneling crap, basically. The second is taking the time. If you genuinely care, you take the time to understand what Steph Stephen is looking for.

Before, when I get on a call, I rarely say like, I'll introduce myself, I'll introduce the platform, but I won't assume that you care about it. You might not, and that's fair. So let me take some time in the conversation to be like, what actually matters to you now? You might think this is cool. Going public might be interesting to you two years from now.

It's certainly not something you are focused on in the next 30 days. Help me identify what you are focused on. Let me try to help you. I want to show you I care. I can tell you I care. You're like, yeah, but I don't, I mean, dude, you have Blazor on, like, what, what tells me that you care? Just because you say it?

No, show me. So I think if you genuinely care, you take the time to understand. And the final part is you follow through and you don't follow through just one time. You follow through as much of it as you possibly can. It's not easy. If you have a thousand people, you know, you also have to make a living and you have to close.

And I'm not saying, you know, short, short term sales aren't, isn't important in building out your pipeline. These are more tactics. I'm saying holistically speaking, having this kind of a mindset for the next 30 years of your career is going to pay you much more dividends. I'll end on this quote I'll never forget.

I think I, yeah, one sec, I'll show you. For any sales people, this is the best book I've ever, ever read. Aside from, you know, the Carnegie's. ,

Stephen: I have that book, and I've never read it, but I have it. Probably because you suggested it, I just went out and probably bought it on Amazon.

George: Honestly man, I I would, I would, I would certainly recommend it. It's called the Little Red Book of Selling. And the, the, the only, there's a lot of great stuff in this, but the best quote I, I, I'll never forget from this from this book is " if you make a sale, you can earn a commission. If you make a friend, you can earn a fortune." - Jeffrey Gitomer.

Stephen: That's an amazing line, George. Thank you.

Where can, where do you like to interact with people? I know I connect with you on LinkedIn, but where's the best place people can interact, reach out to you. I'll, we'll definitely put everything in the show notes, including where they can listen to your podcast. And if anyone's listening, reach out, you might be, reach out and say, you listen to this podcast and we might even send you one of those books.

I feel in a giving mood today. So reach out and we'll send you the little red book of selling for the first person to reach out to us.

George: Love it. Yeah. And then honestly, thanks again for having me. I really appreciate you taking the time. You are an amazing host by the way. So I want to give you your colors.

You've been a good friend just even giving me this opportunity means a lot to me. And to anybody listening LinkedIn, always, always love connecting with people there. Drop me a note. If you listen to this podcast tell me what you're working on, what you're focused on these days, and hopefully we can collaborate.

Stephen: Love it. Thank you so much, George.

George: Cheers.