Stephen: This is your host Stephen Sargeant, Around The Coin Podcast. We're talking content, we're talking crypto, payments, compliance, everything you can imagine for content creators and those that are hiring them like entrepreneurs.

We talked to Tachat, who's the founder and CFO of destream, a revolutionary platform that encompasses payments. and infrastructure and content creation for those content creators like me and probably like the ones you hire to promote your business.

We cover the whole gambit. This is an important conversation because there's so much nuances when using payment service providers like PayPal that don't allow certain transactions in certain jurisdictions. Listen up and let me know how you like this episode.

Stephen: This is your host, Stephen Sargeant. We're going to be talking about content creation and monetization on the Around The Coin podcast. Many of us in the industry, whether it's payment, tech, or crypto, we're either hiring influencers or content creators. But, you know, there's never been a really great way to send funds back and forth.

And we're speaking to Tachat, the founder and CFO of destream, which is pretty much a content creation and a monetization platform. Tachat, tell us a little bit about yourself and then we're going to get in deep about what you're building at destream.

Tachat: Yeah, sure. First of all, thank you, Stephen, that you invite me to, to join you and speak about the content creation at the, at all, let's say in the general and of course about project. Yes. So, yeah, destream is the, the one step, let's say, shop for the content creators to get an instruments for the monetization and like some kind of, let's say we see in the future us as.

A bank for content creators, so it means that we know the market, we know the problems, we know the users, we know the creators, and we are focusing on that market, not to have a classical banking stories with the classical KYC, IML, like without understanding anything about like what's happening around the world and especially in some specific markets.

So yeah, that's what we are building, so, and our focus is first of all. Is the fintech side and plus tools for creators. Yeah. So that's, that's what the difference, I mean, our difference, why, why we are building something new and based on a fintech side.

Stephen: That's super interesting Tachat. Tell me a little bit about, you know, banking. Do you, are you surprised that banking over the how many decades hasn't created customized services?

For things like content creators, for things like technology or cryptocurrency. To your point, they kind of, you know, batch everyone in the same, like, Hey, you have to all follow the same steps. But a lot of these organizations and especially the businesses and individuals you're dealing with are in a, in a separate niche.

And there has to be some context. Is that where you saw a hole that like, cause you were in e banking early in Cyprus, is that where you saw like, Hey, banking isn't really providing, you know, they're providing this blanket service and they're not really specifying how they can help the customer.

Tachat: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I was first trading a lot about the banking banks and banking, and yeah, I was first writing a lot about that. Some nothing is changing in the banking sphere. Yeah. So the banks are like very old fashioned and they don't want even to To do something, to change something, to implement something new, yeah?

While it's not pushed a lot by the market, yeah? So usually they implement something when it's like already you have to. There is no other ways not to have some, I don't know, products or whatever. But at the same time need to understand the one, I mean, one story, yeah? These guys have like a hundred or hundred years of history.

So, and also, To make something for them it's like, let's say, the bank, it's a huge truck driving on a narrow street, yeah, the long street, nice street, or whatever, and then someone is saying, telling them, now you need to make a U turn. So, and that's, yeah, it's possible, yeah, because it sure is possible, but it will take decades to, to do that, yeah?

So, that's why we see like, new startups, new fintech companies who's doing on top of it, yeah? So, I mean, when, and that's another thing, so when the banks will really understand, not about new clients, they need to understand that there, if there is a project, let's say like destream, Or any other projects who's trying to build on top of the classical banking system something new and it need to be compliant with their law, first of all, yeah, it's, it's, it's okay.

But it doesn't mean that it need to be like a copy paste of the bank on the next level and saying just because it's like it's in for the new market. It cannot work like that. That it's not only actually about the banks, about the PayPal, the classical story with a PayPal. Yeah. So in our case, PayPal is blocked us.

Why? Because one of the donators who was sending money to a creator, I don't know, maybe it was a type of actually I don't even know, but right now, but that, but the story that he made 100, Transaction of two euro and then ask for one hundred two chargebacks. So even though the old chargebacks we won, but the PayPal said, you are super high risk client.

And we're not going to work any we're not going to work with you. Why? I mean, that's, I mean, yeah, that that's the world. That's the people, how they think. I mean, that's the problem. Yeah. That we are solving. That's why we won everything. Not just resent, you know, like showing that something went wrong. We decided to just refund money.

No. So, I mean, and, and. Every every step with the banks, like classical banks, we have the same thing. Yeah, we need to explain that what are we doing. First of all okay, thanks to COVID maybe these years or like last couple of years, more and more people really understand what is content creation, what is tipping, first of all, because like when I was trying to build a tipping platform and said what, you know, that there is a streamers, bloggers.

And the audience, when they like it, they just send them money. What do you mean? Just send them money. Like exactly literally what I mean, that I mean that they just send the money. That's it without any I mean, they don't wait for anything. Just be just like a thank you. Let's say, yeah. So, and it's like completely impossible to understand.

And when I show, I was liking to show usually, you know, the ASMR videos when like with. 15 million views. And you see, I'm saying, you see what, what they're doing is for them, it's like the mind was blowing, like, come on. So 15 million people was watching these, you know, this kind of stuff. Yes, that's the world.

Yeah, just if you open the door and just go out to see what's happening around, you will see all the stuff that I'm trying to explain to..

Stephen: It's a little bit better now with things like Patreon? There's so many examples of like Patreon. We all have the classic PayPal story, right? You don't have to do anything wrong, but you're not doing it exactly the way they want you to do it. Which is always hard because like, hey, not all your customers are going to fit inside this little box that you feel comfortable.

And obviously they have their own risks to worry about. They've been penalized by regulators because they have so many customers. I'm curious, because you're in Cyprus. Cyprus has never stood out to me as like a technology hub. But you know, you've worked in e banking, you're creating a, you know, a platform for monetization for content creators.

Can you describe like the tech culture in Cyprus? Which is, I believe, a fairly small island, right?

Tachat: Yeah, it's actually, yeah, we're like one mil people here. So not so big. Yeah. And you can drive through. From one side to another side of Cyprus, like maybe two and a half, three hours. Yeah. I mean, the longest way, I mean, like, yeah look at the same, yeah, it's small island, but at the same time, historically in Cyprus there are a lot of forex companies, for example.

So like, Almost all the forex companies, the big companies, global companies or not only forex, I mean, for the investment companies, et cetera, are in Cyprus. So from that side, if we check the tech of that companies and fintechs, it's super great. If we think that if the forex companies or investment, you know, the brokers and et cetera, that, that type of companies are here.

So it means the banking will be the best. No. Again, not because of the technology. Again, because of the mood and the way of the thinking about all the stuff, what's going on around. Yeah. And I hope That will, I mean, that need to be changed anyway. So even from the regulatory perspective, yeah, Cypress is one of the countries where you can get a license for crypto to launch a crypto exchange.

And it's like, there is a SYSEC regulation. Yeah. S Y S E C, yeah. So it's a separate SEC. And the central bank is like two different regulatory regulatories. So, but at the same time, like a joke, yeah. So  SYSEC issuing a crypto license. And when this crypto license is going to do something with the banks or central banks, central bank ban the cryptos.

And that's it. So in the same country. Yeah. So, but in general..

Stephen: Like the U.S. Where like individual states are like, yeah, crypto and the federal is like, hey, we're not making any rules about it. You're kind of using it at your own discretion. You're like, well, what can we do here? Right?

Tachat: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So from that perspective yeah, it's, it's still classical banking, but from the other side, because of the audience, let's say who live here, people, it's a lot of IT guys here, a lot. So, people are doing new stuff. People are developing and also trying to somehow change country from inside, let's say.

Yeah. And it's not only about the banking stuff. It's about the e-government, you know, all the stuff around your life. Yeah. Classical life. Yes. So yeah, there was a couple of years ago, there was no even the, the food delivery. Now we have like five, six, I don't know, any almost

Stephen: Now you have too many options,

Tachat: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen: Classic problem. Before you didn't have any options. Now it's like 17 apps on your phone just to order a burger..

Tachat: Yeah, everybody's like, I remember that, that restaurant was in Vault, Vault, where Uber eats or whatever, you know. Yeah,

Stephen: That's hilarious. Can you tell me like, what, if I'm, you know, listening to this, I'm a payments tech entrepreneur, I'm paying content creators. What seems to be the biggest problem or the existing challenges that content creators have in getting paid or even finding a platform where they can properly monetize or plug into or API into?

Tachat: Yeah, first of all a small history, yeah. So, when I was It was 2017, just first thoughts about this dream, first ideas when we were thinking why this dream, why we want to build, I mean, it was because from my, let's say, secret card until now, actually, it's, it's quite hard to make a purchase or, you know, To buy something in US even.

So even though it's like Visa card, MasterCard or whatever. So like, okay, so I see the creator. I want to support him. I want to do something, subscribe, send money, tip money or whatever. And I cannot, the question is why? The answer is because. So, okay, that's it. So the first point is, is that the second thing, when I started digging in, And I understood a lot of problems from the creator side, yeah?

For example, if you are a creator, like you are a creator. And you are, for example, a YouTube blogger. You receive maybe 300k per month from YouTube. And want to take a loan, for example. They will never give you a loan because you are unemployed someone for them, who want to get a loan, even though you are receiving 300k per month from Google, yeah?

But for them, are you employee? No. Why? So what the reason you receive this money? And now explain what is, who you are, what is Google, what is YouTube, etc. Thanks God, again. Today, when it's grow, it's grow up a lot. I mean, we have, everybody knows Mr. Beast now. Yeah. And the millions he is doing. More or less easier.

But at the same time, from the classical banking side, I mean, it's, you are super high risk client because, why? Because they don't know how to evaluate, evaluate you. Yeah. So, I mean, there is no score. I mean, the risks, scores or whatever. So that's why, that's what one of the things, the chargeback

Stephen: raise a good point there because Mr. B Like for example, Mr. B says he takes all that money and reinvest in new videos to make them better but he So if Mr. Beast wants to grow, it's like he has to wait till he gets paid in order, but that's not his business model. And to your point, if you have to go get a loan and say, Hey, I want a million dollar loan so I can make three videos.

They're going to say, well, you know, you're not, even though you're making money, you're also spending, but to your point, you don't have a business model that they understand that they feel comfortable lending money to you. And I'm assuming even if they do, it's kind of like when you don't have good credit and you have to buy a car, right?

Instead of paying 5 percent interest, you're paying 30 percent interest. But in this case, it's like, These people have normal credit. It's not that they're risky, but they're risky to the traditional banking ideology of like, Hey, you have to have whatever your, you know, your income statement is every single month.

And I think more and more people, not just creators, more and more people like, Hey, I'd rather make 40, 000 talking about baking and doing fun videos. Then like slugging it out on a 9 to 5 job and working overtime to make a couple thousand dollars more. So I think we're seeing more and more people that need destream and those type of platforms.

Because they don't even know where to start because their traditional bank can't help them.

Tachat: For example, even not talking about the YouTube or whatever, I mean, just the classical PayPal. When I received money from a company, yes, it's like a business account. We received money to our bank account and bank asking, what's this? This is PayPal. What's PayPal? Give me the paper contract signed and what, what, how to explain, you know, like that, what paper contract or what do you mean the paper contract?

Like, oh, then, I mean, yeah, that's, that's the life we had and collecting all this pain based okay. That time I was thinking that it will be much more easier to build destream, yeah? But now, okay, we are building, what to say. So, but now we became almost a bank from the technologically side, from the, I mean, the KYC, from the AML, from the, Rules, because also the biggest problem for creators and for the market, it's a fraud.

So we need to cover that, because no one, I mean, no any payment provider even, just not, I'm saying about the banks or something, I mean, They really can understand the patterns of the fraud in these markets. Yeah. So it means that, I mean, they will pass through the transaction, but on our side, we need also to to, to make the scoring based on our knowledge our data, what we have collected and then understand if it's if we're going to accept this card with this user.

These transactions are known. For example, one of the good examples we had right a couple days ago, one of our payment providers, they came back and he used to, you know, there is a card which is like paying more than 500k almost in the years. And so what? It's strange. So what's strange? Okay, we have a KYC and everything and this is the guy from Qatar.

Yeah, he's Making transactions, mostly daily, to one of the users, very beautiful users, let's say, yeah, and what What's the problem? There is even a LinkedIn profile where we can see he is the CEO of one of the biggest companies in Qatar Yes, this guy, he has money And yes, he wants to do whatever he wants with his money.

What's the problem?

Stephen: it on NPC girls.

Tachat: Yeah, there is no problem. And this is something which, I mean, will never the classical banks or even fintechs, which are not focused on some specific market or I mean, they will never understand that either. They need to build like their own. Department for the specific market. Maybe that's the solution for them.

I am, I don't know. Maybe they will come to buy destream for that solution in the future. As a strategic investment or whatever we'll see. Yeah, but in general That's the list of problems. Yeah, we can, I mean, just we can spend another one hour just only Not discussing even problem just just have a list of that problems Yeah, just to collect that everything you will help me also sure.

I'm sure that about your stories with questions from the banks because of one word, yeah, like crypto you mentioned before or something, yeah. It doesn't mean if we have crypto, does not mean that it's crypto. We touch even that crypto. I mean, there is like a specific thousand way of working with that without being involved like exactly in a technology.

Yeah, we are like We have user experience side guys, yeah, we have a super smooth way to accept crypto, but doesn't mean that we take crypto, we do something there, we mine crypto, you know, like, yeah.

Stephen: It's really tough because, you know, before the call, we were talking for me to get business insurance to say, I teach people about crypto compliance. So the same function that's questioning me about what I'm doing. I'm like, yeah, I'm teaching people about that compliance, AML, KYC function of crypto. As soon as I use the word crypto, it's like, oh, it's a different department.

You're going to have to speak to high risk. And it's like, no, I'm not, I don't even have set up for crypto. I'm getting insurance. For when I go deliver these presentations, like if the insurance is for delivery of presentations and making sure when I'm in the property, I'm safe. It's like, they just, they can't wrap their head around it.

And I think what we're seeing is a lot of people just don't want to bother learning. They don't want to learn about Mr. Beast or how tipping works. They're just like, Hey, I get paid whether I accept this new customer or not, I'm just going to not learn about it. But tell me about the pandemic, because you're, you know, you have this D Stream before the pandemic.

What are some trends that you saw during the three, what felt like four years of the pandemic from 2020 to at least, you know, last year or even earlier this year that you noticed on the platform? Was there a lot more users? Was there different, you know, payment patterns? Can you give us a couple insights that you have?

Tachat: Yeah sure. So yeah, in pandemic actually it was exactly the period when we just launched a project like Life. And from first point of view, we were scared like pandemic. So we launched the product, something happens with the world. And again, when we launched something new, yes. So, but at the other hand.

Then we realized that because people have nothing to do, so they start either watching like creators, I mean the bloggers, streamers, videos, or whatever, or they become a creator. Yeah, for example, in that period, the musicians, the, actually almost every professional, Who was I mean, like I would say yeah, like from the creative economy now, which is like creative economy.

Yeah. They, they, they, they were stacked at home. They cannot do, and there was no concerts. There was no parties for DJs. There was actually nothing around. Yeah. So they partially for that time, a hundred percent, but then they partially moved to, to online and like, it was, and we had like online concerts. We, there was like, a lot of DJs decided to make like a DJ sets online again.

And I mean, and it was, for us, it was very good because we've got the both, the guys who are watching because there's nothing to do else, just watch your computer and TV or whatever. And the creators, they need to make some money as minimum to use the delivery to buy the food, yes? So, and it was very, very good match, and actually that was very, for us it was very good period.

And after that, that was the push for the market, because in that case, I mean, the creator, the musicians, for example, they understood like, Hey, So I can do not only the real concert and like, in the stadiums or whatever, I can have my own stadium like online, yeah? When the 5, 000 people will watch me, I mean, they, we can communicate even, they can help me, they can send me support, man, et cetera, et cetera, yeah?

So it was For the market it was very, actually, it was very good. Yeah. So, and these, okay, we say four years. Okay. Let me tell you about that, like a couple of years. I mean, now we see also that these markets became visible for other other markets, for example, the gambling market. Yeah. So a lot of gambling companies huge international and big, now spent Maybe 80 percent of the budgets they have to sponsor the creators.

Maybe, yeah, from specific let's say specific specific streamers. Like, for example, the guys who play casino and stream how they play casino all the time in the slots or whatever. But yeah, that's a very huge market and sometimes they pay like 40, 000 per hour, depends on the creator, of course.

Yeah, just, yeah, that's crazy, crazy figures. Yeah, yeah. So if you are like a 1 million plus subscriber creator, you can get like up to really 30, 000, 40, 000 per hour, just because you will stream how you are playing on specific casino who paid you, yeah, let's say. So yeah, it's, it's, it's extremely growing.

And also, finally, the creators understood that it's, I mean, if you're a streamer, it doesn't mean that you need to be stacked with the streaming in one platform. Let's say it's Twitch, yeah, for sure. Now you have to have an Instagram. TikTok, YouTube Shorts, etc, etc. So new formats, new way of interaction, new ways.

Also, I mean, if we are talking about like 2020, 2021 it was I mean, The streaming was part only of YouTube or Twitch or similar like platforms when you need to connect, you know, the camera, the microphone and the specific software for that. But now you can stream directly from Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.

You can make a joint streams. There are some additional stuff on top of the streams already implemented in, for example, in TikTok. Yeah, I mean that, that's. A huge push for the market and that as minimum, I mean, everybody can just try without spending money because to make, to become, let's say, a game streamer, you need to have a super expensive game computer, you need to have a super expensive equipment itself.

to start streaming, which is like quite expensive for just the beginner who want just to touch, you know, and understand if he really wants to do that or not. Yeah. Yeah,

Stephen: Awesome. How many active users do you have on the platform? Like how many transactions are you doing a month? Like do you have any sort of numbers that you can give us and then maybe compare that to maybe

Tachat: sure.

Stephen: similar service, maybe not direct competitors, but maybe similar services that we can understand, you know, the, the capacity that you're doing on your side.

Tachat: The numbers, look, okay, we're actually on the platform, we have more than 90, 000 registered users. And we're not actually, we don't have like a specific figure for, active user because the activity of the user in our case it's a specific story. Yeah, because the user can be still active, but he decided because of his was burnout and he decided not to stream or make a content for three months.

Stephen: Right.

Tachat: He is active or not. He's still a real creator. And tomorrow, if he will make another stream and we'll get five transactions, he will, I mean, It's a bit complicated in this case. Yeah. So yeah, if he was not streaming for two years, of course he's not active. It's, it's one story. Yeah. So it's more than 90, 000 registered users we have.

And again, what is streamer and what is creator? Or, I mean, not creator A donator, yes, a supporter. Because it's a classical story when creator also supporting other creators. So he received money with destream. He used that money to tip to another user from destream. Yeah, so again, so that's why it's like mix of you.

It's a mixed type. Or there was a supporter who decided to become a streamer. Why not? Or a creator. Again, the same tools, the same account, everything is the same, but now he's not sending only, he's also receiving money. So yeah.

Stephen: What are their platform features? Like I know monetization is one huge part of it, but what other features, like what other reasons are, you know, users, creators, donators coming on the platform to interact with it?

Tachat: Easy peasy. Let's say you are not a complicated set. You are like a, just a normal creator. You are not stream, I mean, that is not live streams. Yeah. For you. You don't have a Twich account or whatever. So you just register with us passing like an easy KYC because we need to know about the user. Like it's liveness.

Check as minimum to check that you are real, real li real person. Any Id. So with that and after that you will, you have reached, okay, that is a bit small again from classical banks, but we have to, you need to explain in a short period, short word, let's say briefly to our support, what are you doing, where are you doing, just show the links that, I mean, there's also, we need to understand that you are a real user and after that you can Use the tools.

For example, the main tool, what we have, it's a payment link or a QR code, which you can publish whatever you want in your, I mean, whatever you want in your social media, with the words like, if you like my content, you can support me here. So, yeah, and then, The user who will go through the link, you will see, I mean, how much money he wants to send, a message which you will get.

Also he can subscribe for that amount every month. He will be trying, I mean, like, every month he wants to send you this money so he can just subscribe to you. And after that you will receive that money. Yeah, of course. The payment methods we have right now is the credit card an Apple pay.

Also we have the crypto. So again, to work with crypto with us, creator does not need to anything about crypto because if someone will send he will receive just a proper fiat and he, he can just withdraw the money after receiving. So he, he, he withdraw to the money either to bank account. Or in a second to any bank card by the just card number, like this is a Mastercard or we are issuing our own card for creators.

So you can issue the card, move money from this team to a card and pay whatever you want with the Mastercard issued from our company, let's say. Yeah. So

Stephen: And the reason you started with cryptos, you saw the crypto has a very huge tipping component to it, right? It's a big tipping community, especially on crypto Twitter. People are tipping, you know, creators, but they're also tipping projects or just tipping in general, right? They, you know, you're putting out thought leadership and they want to send you a small portion.

And that's the beauty of, you know, probably your infrastructures. You can spend..

Tachat: Only small,

Stephen: small portions of money. Whereas like other organizations, it's probably like certain minimums you can send. Then it comes with high fees where it's like, Hey, we just want to send a couple of Satoshis to this guy for being cool.

What's the infrastructure with the crypto? Are you using, you know, some kind of merchant services behind the scenes?

Tachat: Yeah, usually the whole idea that we build a platform for, let's say, processing the transaction, the users and all that stuff, and which is connected to a various other payment systems. Companies around, yeah, because in that case, for example, again, one of the main things now we are doing, unfortunately, I was thinking that the banks will do something like that, but no, I have to do it.

For example, I'm understanding, for example, you have the European card, so it means that your card will be routed to a European acquirer, the European bank. To make a better success rate for the card if you are from U. S. it will be moved to another bank, which is better for the U.S. card if you are from the U.S. In Latin America and etc, so having like we have now two, three, four, five, six acquirers around the world. And this routing based on the best practices of the card, let's say, and the bank you have. So we understand which bank you have. Then we decided where to send this card, I mean, you as a card user to have like a best success rate and to have, make you happy and the creator happy that he received the money, yeah?

Not to have a decline, as I was telling before that I was not able to make a transaction from Europe. To U.S. with a for it. It's, it's, it's joke. I mean, the visa, MasterCard is like American companies, so it means that having a visa MasterCard in Europe, I cannot pay to America. Like, okay. So I will, I will find my

Stephen: I'm in Canada too. I can't even send, like, I always joke around. Sometimes I've had friends are like, Hey, we're going to buy some lottery tickets. And I'm like, I can't even send, they're like, Oh, just Venmo me. And I'm like, I can't use Venmo here.

Tachat: Yeah.

Stephen: and I'm like, I'll just e transfer you. They're like, it doesn't work in you.

And like, it's like all these payment methods, but they're all siloed, even though it just makes sense. And you're kind of that connector that can connect all these different payment service operators. So that they can do it, I can send money to you in the way it is available to me. And then you'll forward that money to the end person in a way that's available for them.

And we don't see that, we see that disjointedness across the industry.

Tachat: Yeah, and that, I mean, actually that's what we are doing. So I, we want to have as much as possible payment methods for the payers. And also as much as payment, withdrawal methods, let's say, for the creators. So, yes, that's the easiest way. Why the payment? Why, for example, we issued the card? Because we, I mean, the people were start telling that, you know, we need statements.

We need whatever to show the banks from where this money are coming. Okay, no problem. Yeah, we, we made it. But at the same time, we're saying, guys, look, you received with us. You use our card. Why are we gonna ask you where the money comes from? We know from, I mean, we know the full cycle of your money. So just use our card.

You will not have any problem at all around. I mean, like these questions as minimum will be cut out from your life. And the only thing, what you need to do is the content, not to think about the payments, about the AML rules, I don't know, whatever, whatever, whatever. Chargebacks, we will do our best to cut the chargebackers.

The success rate we will do. So if someone went from US send you money. We will find the best way to implement, so you will be able to get that money. Yeah, so that's the general story. A crypto, you want crypto, no problem. You don't know anything about the wallets, not 12 words, 24 words, whatever words.

Yeah, so no problem. Just use the same payment link all around that we will cover. So you will receive money, which you just need to move to card and use it. That's it. Immediately, yeah. And of course, it's immediately, not three days later. I'm like, weaving, I don't know what. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen: I want to talk to you. You kind of like touched on this subject of not illegal transactions, but morally some companies don't want to get into it. Although we see like adult entertainment, you know, OnlyFans has become more mainstream and more adopted by society as something that's a something that people do are, but PayPal, MasterCard, Visa may not think that, and you know, by all means.

How do you still, are there any areas that you don't service or do you kind of thrive in these areas that traditional companies don't want to get into, but you realize is just a part of life just like anything else. And the demand is definitely there from customers.

Tachat: We're not working with adult industry because it sounds like similar, but it's completely different industry with a different Payers with a different behavior of payment and et cetera, et cetera. So that we, well, I mean, it's, it's not our market and we are not there even though the, yeah, OnlyFans is, OnlyFans is growing and from some point it becomes like a normal.

Because if you talk with the, any payment provider or whatever, like three years ago, it was like completely banned. Now I see that it's not bad. I mean, I mean, no harassment. What, what's the problem? I mean, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. So no, not our case actually maybe in the future when we will Which is impossible.

I think that, I mean, okay, more or less, if we'll cover the, let's say 80 to 80 percent of the problems, what we have in the market right now, because we're still working we will dig in to that part, but no we work, okay. For us also, the. High risk, even we have a specific high risk industries. It's a gambling creators because with them, there are other problems.

They, I mean, their users sometimes misunderstand what the guys are doing. And sometimes sending tips, they think that they are playing with the guy. Or they sent tip to us if they think that they are depositing a casino. And then, you know, like chargebacks, stories, you stole my money, I was never used your platform, etc, etc, etc.

Like, uh,

Stephen: It's a lot higher in those kind of industries where people are like, Hey, my wife saw the bank statement. All of a sudden now this is a mistake. It's

Tachat: yeah, exactly.

Stephen: You get a lot more than that than somebody that's like, Hey, I just want to pay Mr. Beast and tip him, right?

Tachat: Yeah, if, if you check our, like, Trustpilot, and I mean the Google reviews and everything, we have only two types of the, like, either it's five star or one. Because, like, five stars, awesome, nice, guys, you are best, I mean, everything is very fast, smooth, blah, blah, blah. And one, you are scammers, you took my money without my approval, or whatever.

I mean, guys, I mean, every hour transaction is passing 3DS, it means you have to take your phone, or whatever, and approve the transaction. It's impossible to just take money from your account, yeah? But we have that. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's our life. I mean, and then when sometimes banks are asking, you know, we saw good reviews and I said, what, and what, what, tell me your, your feedback.

They said that you are scamming people and how, how, now you are as a professional from payments, how I can just charge the card without the approval of the user. Tell me, please. Yeah,

Stephen: seeing a lot more friendly fraud happen across the ecosystem. It's just not with, you know, they're, They're charging back credit cards at a more rampant rate where they call it friendly fraud, where they're like, hey, I don't want to pay for this. Or, hey, maybe if I say that I didn't get it, I can get two products

Tachat: Exactly, exactly.

Stephen: Versus one. So we're seeing this one rampant. It's not just like, oh, payment processors.

Tachat: Exactly.

Stephen: People are realizing there's gaps. Like, this is the same reason why people are taking three year old couches back to Costco, because they realize like, hey, they're going to accept it. I'm not breaking the rules technically.

Tachat: yeah, yeah.

Stephen: you know, what is the average content creator making?

Like, I know you can't go into specific people, but tell me, like, hey, like a baking show, we've seen people make 30, 000 a month, or like, can you give me some examples of what money, you know, some of the, you know, money that people are making on the platform?

Tachat: Okay. I will not say the average something, but I will say like the interesting figures we have, for example talking about cryptos, like latest stories. It was one of the users, female, who received in Bitcoin around 10K Euro, for example. And this is not something strange for us. Yeah, it's like, okay. It's like, yes.

Another thing, it's a casino. These players. The biggest casino streamers, they get a lot because, I mean, they in general get a lot because that's market is like, that's a huge market. And the, with the, I mean the money side, I mean, they are throwing money everywhere and to anybody. Also some kind of In real life streamers, let's say, who's like traveling and doing like more interesting content like that.

Now, as we see a bit going down, the gaming streamers, you know, who's doing like just the classical game streams that's not, I mean, that's for, you know, more, it's specific content for specific people who watch it. But again, now it's growing a lot. Also, like a sport people, I mean, the people from the sport, fitness I mean, a lot of sportsmen, like football players, et cetera, want to dig in, because as we realized and see it, they're asking us, I mean, like advice what to do, because, for example, there is a football player.

In Germany. He's already cost 50 mil per year, but at the same time he has zero I mean, zero effort in Instagram or wherever. Yeah. So they are asking like how, what, what we need to do. And we see that these guys, when these guys will come, I mean, they will make a lot of money with us. Because it's football.

Yeah, it is growing again. I mean, it was like reborn, I know, somehow. For example I mean, now it's very popular in Arab countries because of the Arab League and etc. And in the, from that countries, I like that countries. These guys always send, spend, and donate like 2, 000, 3, 000,

Stephen: They have the money. They know what they like, and they're not scared to..

Tachat: Shakes. With a shake, four shakes, and they are doing always, I mean, and also if you check about the pattern, yeah, the interesting stories with the the payment pattern.

Like 95 % let's say cards are super premium Visa, Master, Amex, Gold, Platinum or whatever, you know, there is no like just, you know, like instant issued card or something. No, always

Stephen: cashback cards. They're

Tachat: Oh no,

Stephen: not having cards where you get cashback. They're having cards where you get front row seats at Formula One.

Tachat: Yeah, yeah, but I was actually surprised that sometimes we receive like 25, 000 or something in the house. But just who's this guy? I mean he need to be, he need to have like a super VIP card to have this limit on the card. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, I understand who's this guy, I mean, like, exactly, that's a super VIP clients from the specific, very nice countries, which I like a lot.

And they, yeah, they, they want, they like entertainment and they're ready to pay for it. What, I mean, super awesome. I like them. So that's, that's briefly what I can tell about the market and who and how. Which, I mean, there is no specific, actually, there is no specific statistic that's, yeah, for the baking, you will get this or that.

It also depends how you work with the sponsors, for example. How you work with the creator, with the audience. Because some creators think even they are very big, but for example, they think it's not a good way to ask for donations. Why not? It's like the market works like that. I mean, that's the market.

So you ask.

Stephen: They're too good to ask for donations or it kind of, it cheapens their brand a little bit. Is that?

Tachat: Exactly, but, but at the same time, no, that's, I mean, this market comes from donations. Yeah, this internet is maybe the only way how they can really interact with you. Sending 5, 10, 1, 000, I mean, for sure you will see him, you will see the message, you will read the message, and he will be happy he touched you somehow, yeah, why not?

Stephen: And they want to be a part of something, right?

Tachat: We are there apart. That's, I

Stephen: They want contribute in some way. And especially to your point, they may not be able to afford a $300 soccer jersey or attend the game. This is their way of interacting with you and building up that fan loyalty. So, as it grows, you're going to attract even bigger, you know, sponsorships, and, you know, the money that you feel is prestigious, you'll attract that more by growing your audience.

Tell me about TwitchCon. I think some of your team went there, maybe you went directly. What were some of the overarching, I think you said, you know, Twitch, you know, regular streaming of games seems to be going down a little. What were some of the trends that you saw? Is AI a big topic? What were some of the trends?

Tachat: AI, again, AI in this case, I mean, not about streaming. AI is the very super tool for translations, for example, because, again, with AI, with a real time translation to any language, It's open completely the whole world for the creator, yeah? Because in this market, there is no specific, we, we are not, we don't have a specification by country, let's say.

When someone is asking me, tell me your geo, I don't have a geo because I have a language. If it's English, it's everywhere. If it's Spanish, it's another half of the world plus a couple countries in Europe. So, now when you want to be a global, a global creator and attract as much as possible users from other countries, other language speakers, you need to find the way how to let them understand what are you doing, what are you talking about.

Yes. So here is very, I mean, it's, it's, there are a lot of nice tools for AI subs and even changing the voice and make, I mean, the changing the language automatically. It's very nice. And also, I mean, In general, in general, girls, yeah, girls are growing, not only fans girls or the girls who are streaming one way and also they have only fans, like it's a different story, yeah?

That's growing very fast, really uh,

Stephen: Did you feel that there wasn't just a, there was more, it was just more men occupied, like gaming scene was a little bit more occupied by men, but now you have girls maybe a little bit scantily clad dressed, and they're real gamers, they're not just there to kind of pose, they're really into these things, do you think that's kind of crossed the nexus where it's like, oh, I like looking at this person, but they're also, you know, doing cool soccer blogs, they've really integrated themselves in the market more than just being like, Hey, I do OnlyFans.

It's like, no, I create actual content and I just happen to be attractive.

Tachat: Yeah, yeah, it's actually the same, I mean, for example, it's but again, only fans, yeah, if there was a creator, even, I mean, musician. They have also OnlyFans, but not the OnlyFans Wave. So they, they upload a bit different stuff, but again, it looks like OnlyFans, or Patreon, or whatever. Now it's okay, or sometimes it's a must.

If you want to make as much as possible money from your audience, they ask you to open a OnlyFans, or they ask you to have a specific content for a specific audience. Patreon or whatever, yeah, because the way of, the way of watching different, let's say, you're getting content from a different sources.

Now it's like some kind of patterns. They don't want to see on Twitch content from TV. They have YouTube or whatever. They don't want to see on YouTube content from I don't know, Bloomberg or et cetera. Yes. That's, that's actually why the TV channels failed when they decided to just copy paste the TV shows directly to YouTube.

It doesn't work like, nobody want to see again the same shit. They moved from TV not to see you. Now they just upload the same shit here. I mean, that's the same content here. It's, it does work like that. Yeah. So

Stephen: Do you have any thoughts about platform? It looks like Kik has kind of really stepped up in the market with like huge influencers and like, you know, stream, like live streamers. Not even like, they're not playing games. They're just walking around. Have you seen an uptick of people using certain platforms now versus before?

Tachat: Kik was born from the Casinos and the gambling guys. So it was more specific. Okay. They start like, we are platform without rules, do whatever you want. And people start to take whatever they want. And they were not happy to see what actually people want to do, because that's other psychological problems of the people, the content, what they can produce.

Yeah. So, and now they're actually trying to find the niche. And let's see, I cannot like tell you anything yet because it's super young. We had, okay, they spread money, they buy a lot. But at the same time, we also saw the story with the platform from Microsoft, and Microsoft bought Ninja. So Ninja moved, and he was also always dying with the Microsoft streaming platform.

Yeah, I forget the name of the platform,

Stephen: That's the whole point. It's like I couldn't even think of the name of the platform anymore. And I think that's the point, right?

Tachat: yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's why I don't want to have any, how to say expectations.

Stephen: platforms,

Tachat: I mean, I don't want to have any expectations yet. Let's see how the market will. I mean, the market is that the market is market. If it's, it will find the place it will be there. No, it will be the platform, which nobody, like, we don't remember Microsoft platform.

It'd be like the, there was a platform from a casino guys and that's it. So

Stephen: Awesome. Before we go and end the conversation, tell me a little bit about, like, what to expect. What's on the roadmap for the platform? What does destream have coming up in 2025?

Tachat: Right now we are actually working a lot for the fraud side because it's Because the market is growing extremely, the frauds also is growing extremely. And this put under pressure creators a lot, and also us. So there, I mean, we put a lot of effort on this side. Also we will change, and it's almost ready, a completely new look and feel UX, UI to make it much more easier.

We'll cut out from the platform the products which are not, I mean, just not to have product as it is. I mean, we just cut out if no one used it. Even though we thought that it's like super great idea, we will launch and everybody will use it, of course not. Yeah, and one of the stories that we have with partners, we will launch a cooperation with, like, our mobile operator, let's say.

Yeah, because we understood that there is no global mobile operator around the world for the creators, nomads, and etc. Right. And these guys who's traveling a lot, they need always to be connected to the internet, to make streams daily streams, etc. There is no such platform. So we are testing actually ourselves, like as a team, these SIM cards and etc.

We're going to have also the eSIM card for creator who just can just get a, again, QR code, scan, that's it. He can use the The network around the world and use the internet. That's briefly some, I mean, products what we have on roadmap now. And again, we are, I mean, the market is growing super very fast.

I mean, we are not even planning anymore for a year. Because I mean, it's, it's sometimes while we are developing, it's not interesting anymore. You know, like it's, you need to just stop the development even without going live because it was trend, but trends can be like short and long. Yeah. So it was like short trend, everybody, Hey, we need to do that.

But no, not two weeks later, no one, where's the clubhouse? Do you remember the clubhouse from COVID time? I mean, where's the copy? Everybody was doing this, you know, the audio chats or whatever, like, this is new

Stephen: remember they were like, used to reset, let's reset the room everybody! And it's Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Tachat: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Stephen: they reset the room all right. Now nobody's in the room and, but oh man those conversations used to be hilarious, like people were like, wow, like okay guys, like you're popular on Clubhouse but it was quite fun.

I used to go on there, you know, quite a bit because you're home all the time, you know, there's only so much content out there. Bye bye. And, you know, people go with the attention is, but the..

Tachat: Yeah, it's like an entertainment. Everybody was bored, you know, like,

Stephen: Yeah.

Tachat: that was a lot of jokes. Like, there was a time when finally someone scrolled down the Facebook, you know, like, until the end, etc.

Stephen: Oh, man. I think we all got to the end of Instagram. Like, what do you mean? There's no news feed, rather than news feed. And yeah, you're right. There was only so many places to go and everyone was, you know, doing push 10 pushups and challenging each other. There's only so much good content out there.

Tachat: Yeah, everybody made $10 now let's 15.

Stephen: Yeah. Like now it's 20. It's like, yeah. Like that, that's great. Where, where can people find you? Where do you spend a lot of your time? Especially because I have a lot of compliance fraud people in my audience that, and if that's something that you're growing, feel free to reach out to me and let me know, I'll definitely send over it because this is a very interesting platform.

We have a lot of actually content creators on places like LinkedIn for fraud professionals. So I think they would feel right at home within your organization. Where's the best place to reach out to you?

Tachat: I think the best place is LinkedIn. I'm always open, just connect. I mean, like, I, I'm a 24, 24 by seven guy online, so I mean, I will always answer. Yeah, so it's, I mean, like, I'll be happy to find the corporations, maybe from the audience you have, I mean, from the Forge staff, also very interesting, and not only so, and maybe someone want to use our platform for the daily usage, let's say, you can use, of course, you need to check, I mean, you have to register and get your link and also use the link.

Stephen: I gotta get in there, I gotta get in there. I love platforms, I love try testing things out and seeing, I love one place, one place, you know, to rule it all versus, you know, trying to piecemeal and puzzle together all these different, I stream here, I collect my money over there, it's like, we're content creators, we don't have time for all that, we just want to create content.

And what you realize and what you probably see now is, Content creators spend a lot of time doing stuff that has nothing to do with content creation.

Tachat: Exactly, exactly.

Stephen: is this administrative burden and answering questions and finding documentation and, you know, reaching out to companies for invoices that they don't really need.

Tachat: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen: Is like content creators are leaving a lot of money on the table because they're not doing what they're doing best, which is great content.

Tachat: Exactly. No, we are not the guys who will ask the invoices for sure, but we are the guys who will just want to believe that we are a real person, a proper content. Yeah, that's, that's it. Yeah. So I'm sure you will

Stephen: know, there's a, there's a lot of conversation around it before we go. There's a lot of conversation around AI influencers. So maybe I don't appeal. As you said, I don't appeal to certain audiences, but maybe I can use my subject matter expertise to create a woman or some other, you know, person that can do it on my behalf, but they're all AI.

Are you not accepting, if I, if I like, you vet me. But I'm creating an AI, you know, influencer. Is that not yet allowed on the platform?

Tachat: It's a lot on our platform. It's not a problem, but I mean, that's a, okay. If we don't say AI, so it's usually we have like a bunch of managers who's managing creators. And they are like, I mean, they are reducing. So the only thing for not the only, okay. One of the main thing, if you have an access to account.

It means, I mean, again, we understand that for creator, the access to YouTube channel, it's means it's his YouTube channel. Yeah. Without, I mean, even if it is not faced on, I mean, he's not jumping on your face from the YouTube or whatever. So if the, if the, if you can put the link. It means, or he can push the button from and connect, I dunno, with the, with destream or twich?

With destream. For us, it means that he's, yeah, we authorized. So he is, this is authorized users and we, he has the he can, it's his channel. That's it. So that's why AI

Stephen: I get that.

Tachat: Yeah, but again, it depends which water AI. We don't accept any kind of. Close off AI stuff, what is cruising around, like it's super risky and I don't want to be involved, you know, accidentally, some not good stuff around that, what can be happen.

Because people always are people, that's another, that's another big topic, yeah, that people are people. They think that that's funny, what are they doing, but at the end of the day, sometimes it's not at all, yeah. So, no, this is banned.

Stephen: I love it. I love it Tachat. Thank you so much for this conversation. And I'll have, you know, some fans reach out to you directly and get some more content creators on the platform.

Tachat: Thank you and thank you very much for your invitation. It was so lovely and super to talk and have this. It's always great to have a conversation with someone who really understands what I'm talking about.

Stephen: I love it. Thank you so much.

Tachat: Thank you. And thank you, Stephen.

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