Stephen: This is Stephen Sargeant. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Around The Coin podcast. Today, I am excited to be speaking to Professor Tonya Evans, recently appointed to the Digital Currency Group, DCG, and she is a professor at Penn State Dickinson Law. She has a niche understanding of the complexities of intellectual property.

And Web3. And we talk about everything. We talk about her new book, Digital Money Demystified, going from cash to crypto legally, safely, and confidently. We also talk about her many accomplishments, including joining DCG as a board member. We talk about diversity in the blockchain industry, as well as the IP legal aspects when it comes to NFTs and crypto.

And we even dabble into Regulatory Compliance while we're at it. Stay tuned, this is an amazing episode. Tell me what you think at the end. And by the way, reach out to me, the host. You never know, I might be able to get you a copy of the book. Stay tuned.

Stephen: This is Stephen Sargeant, host of Around The Coin Podcast, back with Professor Tonya Evans. Tonya, why don't you give us a little bit about your background, then I want to go straight into a recent and amazing accomplishment. But tell us a little bit about yourself. You're a professor at Penn State Dickinson Law but you're so much more than that.

Your content is amazing and you have so many different platforms where you share that content. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tonya: Absolutely. Well, after I fell down this rabbit hole that we'll talk about in 2017 I started to pivot my teaching and my writing, and I wasn't practicing law full time, but I'm really an intellectual property lawyer by training and a lot of my courses at Penn State Dickinson Law, that at Franklin Pierce Law before that, and I had a a whole other institution for 10 years before that.

I've been teaching for about 16, 17 years, really at the intersection of intellectual property and new technologies. And I had a friend who was talking about this magic internet money and something about a decentralized something or other. And what I realized at the time, was that open source software was a really big deal, is, continues to be in the intellectual property area.

For interoperability, all of the, what I now know to be the layer one base that supports what the future of the internet would become, was really, really fascinating to me. So at the time, I didn't fully appreciate, I have come to appreciate, but didn't appreciate the inextricable link between a decentralized method of arranging transactions and balances and how that was really going to disrupt financial the financial industry in every sector within it.

I really was just intellectually curious about the intersection of my expertise and how this what I now know to be revolutionary technology was going to impact it. And so it pulls in all of my expertise, not only as, I was an associate dean at various places. I started in big law. Before that, I was the editor in chief of the Howard Law Journal. H U, you know.

Tonya: And before that, I had a very non traditional path. I was a scholarship athlete at Northwestern University and played professional tennis from 91 to 95 before I went to law school. So, I have a very interesting non traditional path here. I do, I'm not a technologist, although I do have a co hire appointment at Penn State for the Institute for Computational and Data Sciences for the work and the writing and the speaking and the teaching that I do in distributed technology.

I'm the A current board member of the Digital currency group or DCG. And that happened recently, and I'm a former chair of the Maker DAOs Foundation. It was kind of their 2.0 foundation to usher it to full decentralization. And I'm very proud of the work that we did there. So just did a few little things, few little things, and you know, and just a few, there's so much this unpack.

There's a digital money demystified. I, I wrote a book this year. It dropped this fall and it's doing really, really well. It's kind of like the little book that could, it's the type of thing, apologies. It's the type of thing that people should read before they start. You know, this is for the new entrants to come into the space.

It's not going to be a libertarian's dream. Right, but it is certainly separating fact from fiction, which I think in the ecosystem, we all need, because as we go toward greater mass adoption and so many scams under the guise of crypto, sometimes we have replicas, sometimes we have exploits, but many times we have people, hashtag Sam Bankman Freed, who under the guise of crypto is giving crypto a black eye because they're just Garden variety scammers.

So those are some of the things I've been working on.

So

Stephen: much to unpack here. As an 80s baby, who did you, inspired you when it came to tennis? Cause I think it was pre, maybe Serena and Venus Williams. Very much pre. Who inspired you? It might have been post Arthur Ashe, I'm not exactly sure. Like, for me it was like fast people like Michael Chang, I remember.

Just, you know, speed of those people inspired me when I, you know, when you watch on TV and you run out. to the playground and, you know, hit a ball against the wall. Yes. Who inspired you back at that point?

Tonya: So, it's so interesting that I have a little story about Serena and Venus because I, I met them when they were still teenage.

Well, I'll tell it now. I was playing if I'm not mistaken, it was the Lipton. We were definitely in Florida and they were just, you know, giggly tall, but they were very much. Teenagers, like you look at them and they're just, they appear to be regular teens and the giggling stopped once they got on the court.

They weren't playing professionally at the time. They were, they had a very close, I can't say I know them personally, but we certainly met and there's so few black players, black women. So we would gravitate toward each other. We knew all the same people and to see them even just hit, they oftentimes, and I came up this way to working out with the guys.

I was the number one player. Thank you to Title IX. I was the number one player in my high school and they didn't have a girls and a boys. And so in junior high, at least it was basically everybody playing at the same level. So I was the number one on the boys team. That's awesome. Right? Because there was no No way to accommodate me other than to have me play there and I play pretty well, play pretty well.

And so I can certainly relate to working out with guys stronger and really pushing you. But my influences at the time, I'm a little bit younger than Laurie McNeil and Zena Garrison. We shared a coach, shout out to Willis Thomas in DC, and Katrina Adams is not necessarily a household name, but she should be.

She went to the year that I started at Northwestern was the year that Katrina Adams went pro. And I remember being on my My recruitment trip and one of the, I mean, Northwestern is an amazing school. I had an outstanding education, went on to do great things, but I really wanted to play tennis with Katrina.

She was a complete badass grew up in Chicago and we're still very good friends. She was the first Black woman, president of the United States Tennis Association. And we're still very close to this day. So shout out to Katrina. She was one of my greatest influences. And then finally, although we weren't friends, we shared the same coach and worked out whenever, when she would come to Philadelphia, Pam Shriver.

So, I was a, a very good serve and volley player, probably was better at doubles than singles. My doubles ranking was definitely higher than singles, so I was kind of struggling in singles to catch up to my doubles ranking, but she was very influential because of the way that she played serve and volley, very aggressive, had great Like a kick serve, that Australian kick serve.

And so, and I had a crazy, my, my coach at Northwestern hated my severe Western grip. I was like ahead of my time. So I was like, well, I'm not going to be a Chrissy Everett, darling. So this is what it is. I bring a lot of flavor to this court. So that's kind of my, my storied history in, in tennis.

Stephen: I love it. I think it's so important. I think. I don't know. I love all the crypto stuff, but I love interesting stories. You know, I would have never known. That's something that, you know, I would never have known just researching for this episode.

Tonya: Right? I need to put that back in my bio. Oh,

Stephen: yeah, like that should be, that should, that would be the first, if I paid semi professional, like in a country people haven't heard about.

That would be my Instagram handle, Professional Basketball Tennis Player. That would be professional.

Tonya: That one long string.

Stephen: Yeah, that would be it. Just a big tennis ball is my profile pic. ...

Tonya: and I did play um, I did play in the qualifying round. Of the US Open, so in 1993, so your listeners and, and, and subscribers can go look that up.

And then I'm gonna put this back on prof Tonya evans.com. You can see me playing at the open with my long skirt. That's awesome. I don't know what the young people are doing today, but go ahead. Go ahead, .

Stephen: That's awesome. .

Stephen: Talk to me about DCG 'cause even before we started recording, I'm like, this is a huge, huge deal. I don't think enough people are talking about, especially in our community, is like, when we have someone that reaches to a point, and I think people don't really understand and maybe don't see this, you know, I think right now in crypto to, you know, have the next startup or to exit is a huge deal, but to be an influential factor in a contributing manner, Member to the DCG, which holds so many companies.

I just wrote a few down. They, their portfolio companies, Chainalysis, of course, who I love, Circle CoinDest, which was recently sold. Describe your role as a board member and how pivotal is this for your career and others Inspiring to be like you, especially from the law practition..

Tonya: I'm so glad that you brought this up because I'm the type of person, and I feel that when I think of Barry and the folks at DCG, just under the radar, just moving forward, but so incredibly influential to a portfolio of over 200 companies in the ecosystem.

That's basically the ecosystem. And to know that, you know, to have an OG like that, who invested early on to ensure the success and the viability of a range of projects and products and people, and then to just, you know, you acquire. They mature, they exit, you sell. That portfolio is critically important to the success of the industry.

And that doesn't mean that everything is going to go well. That doesn't mean that everything is going to survive. This is business. Most businesses fail. So to see a portfolio that, you know, some have survived, some have died on the vine. Thrived, but the biggest names in this industry at some point in time found their way into this portfolio.

And so when I started so it was on the heels of finishing my work at the Maker Foundation and that in and of itself being the first I'm a, so I'm a black, queer woman, and to have someone like me, who is not a technologist, but is an expert in legal and regulatory issues in addition to teaching blockchain crypto and the law, I teach a range of intellectual property courses, but also administrative law and information privacy law.

And so I bring that. Discipline and expertise to what that means to bridge the divide between incumbents and the new era of investment and money and business, right? And technology. And so to bring that expertise to an area where I think really as companies start to mature, it's no longer just the, and now I'm speaking more broadly, not just of DCG, but think of so many companies that began as just a bunch of bros got together, they were doing some tech things, they were changing the world.

And it's amazing. I love all of that. You and I could walk out on that. Most people don't care, right? You and I, we like, that's amazing. But if we want mass adoption, mass technology, there is. A sweet spot of innovation and break shit and move forward with the maturity and the discipline that comes for long term planning, the viability and the growth of a business, and to help other businesses do the same, because it's not enough for the crypto ecosystem for one to make it.

Like, like, we all gonna make it, right? At least that's the goal and so my work at Maker toward full decentralization and returning everything back to the community, brilliant. And I didn't have, we, it was a board primarily of the Maker Foundation of Independent Directors. That was important to those folks to make sure that they had transpi transparency and accountability.

And so that's the work that I did there as the chair. And then to springboard ahead to something as tremendous as being appointed to the DCG board. I think it's fantastic, but it was a long, slow haul because for me. I'm licensed to practice law in four states, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, D. C. I take my reputation very seriously in the work that I do.

I have a million imposters, so, and scammers, so, I only, we can talk about that later, but it's like, you know, people trading on my name and reputation. It's critically important to me. And I remember, like, conversations even, like, with FTX before the Great Fall in October of last year, really. I mean, it was a, it was a very short process for Sam Bankman Freed from getting picked up, like, kind of, like, in November in the Bahamas full circle.

So I say all that to say there are enough. It may be a minority, but enough bad actors with huge headlines that I take my connection to any community, company, or project very seriously. So there were months of conversations and them interviewing me, me interviewing them, and it just clicked. We just have a lot of we have spirited discussions of differences and commonalities, but the one thing that we can all agree on is the viability is critically important, and making sure that we leave the ecosystem better than we found it.

It's kind of a mantra in my life, and so it makes me really proud. And I don't, you know, if it's not hitting the headlines, and you and I technically feel like it should, I think it's just because I'm the type of person who does the work. Keeps my head down. I have a lot of platforms and I feel like we'll be talking someday.

It was like, remember that time when nobody knew it? And now everybody's talking about it. It's like the overnight success. It took 20 years at that might be me someday. So let's see, let's see.

Stephen: And as an educator, you have so many different platforms. You know, what's interesting about your book is. Why did you feel it was now a great time to release that book?

I don't wanna scare you, but I remember thinking two. I remember thinking 2017, like, oh, you just got into crypto. But like, that's seven years, like next year. That's like seven years ago. Exactly. Remember when you used to think, you know, people that got into crypto in 2013, like, oh, they must have been, you know, so early, so og, but now it.

Gosh, we've been in this for, for myself, like seven, eight years now.

Stephen: Why the need for this book now, do you feel like, what was the need? What were people still, you know, confused about, or what were some of the myths in crypto or digital assets that you were like, we need to clear this up once and for all?

For, as you say, new entrants need to get this base layer of knowledge if we're going to move forward. Because now we're into NFTs and AI and blockchain and real world assets organization. What do people need to understand to build on the foundation of digital assets or crypto assets?

Tonya: So many people got wrecked in the last run up in particular, and then just, it left a sour taste in their mouth.

It was like, my friends and family told me it was a scam, but Tom Brady said it was awesome, and then I got it. And, and then I bought it 65, 000 and then it dropped down to the teens where the rest of us were like, Oh, thank God I can be like sell, do some tax loss harvesting, reset my basis. Let's go. Let's go.

Everybody else wasn't nearly as excited as us. And in 2020...

Taxes? You have to pay taxes on crypto? That's what they're wrong

Stephen: with. They're like, yo, I just made a, I just made a million dollars selling NFT with tax.

Tonya: Right. This is, this is not, this is not money. Oh gosh, it's so much, so much misinformation and disinformation. So in the book, it's the, you know, the intersection of FOMO and FUD led to writing this book. So, Fear of Missing Out, Met, Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, and FUD, for those who don't know, I mean, it's kind of like a, it's one of our fun pejoratives to talk about the miss and the disinformation from legacy systems or from lazy reporters and, and pseudo reporters who are just, You know, say, Oh, it's all scam.

And it absolves them of the responsibility of least doing their due diligence and then making an informed decision. I never say you must buy or you should buy. Please don't send me any money unless you are buying my course or paying for my time to come and speak with you. I am not an investor. I do not take your money.

I do not slide into your DM saying, God bless. And let me get your portfolio. Like none of that. Okay, but what I did want to do was starting with my academy, I didn't mention it at the top, but I founded in 2020 the Advantage Evans Academy. So primarily to support, it's open to everyone, but I was particularly focused on those who've been systemically marginalized historically from a financial and a wealth building point of view to really understand the power and the potential and the pitfalls of getting in unknowingly or not getting in at all. Like, those are very equally risky to me. Not participating at all because somebody told you it was a scam. And it is over 40, 000 different types of coins and tokens or even the definition between coins and tokens.

Visa doesn't think so, Mastercard doesn't think so, PayPal, Venmo, CashApp doesn't think so, Circle doesn't think so, the government might tell you that, but even it knows that Bitcoin in particular is legit. So we have to wrap our brain around the fact that this is the way that we will transact, not only as a matter of currency, but also the ability to hold an asset that is taxed as a capital asset, enjoying gains and losses.

So, I always felt like it was a bit of a misnomer that we have crypto and currency, and we can kind of break that down for people who don't understand. I think you have a lot of sense. Savvy folks who listen and watch, so I don't know if we have to do that, but this idea of not just having something that acts as a medium of exchange, but also can be a store of value over time and really move the needle for wealth for those systemically marginalized and everyone in a way that can't be destroyed.

Makes me think of Black Wall Street things that can't be manipulated or confiscated unnecessarily by rogue governments, etc. So there is some baseline information that everyone needs to know in order to make a more informed decision. And I, I suspect that you hear a lot of the same myths. I just kept hearing like the same eight to ten things over the time.

A scam too volatile, although the volatility really is any nascent asset class, including stocks, but you know, going all the way back to Buttonwood had the same kind of issues. And that's when regulation comes in, the market starts to mature, greater liquidity is injected, more people come in for mass adoption and it stabilizes over time.

But the people who made the real boom. It's always the ones who take the shrapnel on the front lines. Yeah. That's where we are now. Even though Bitcoin came out in January, 2009. So those myths are the things that are separating people. Not a person, not a corporation, not a government. It's those myths that are keeping people from winning and that's why I wrote the book.

Stephen: Do you think that we're a little in the book, like your tagline to the book is, go from cash to crypto safely, legally, and confidently. I think cash is more of a euphemism, or do you think, like, since 2017, when you were just learning about crypto and getting into it, a lot more people were using cash then, like, I feel like, if we see someone using cash right now, we're like, oh my god, come on, they don't have a phone, smart pay, like, a tap, I'm in Canada, so it's like, we tap everything, it's like, come on, man, like, you have to pay, you have to get changed now, like, we don't have time for this, do you feel that this is an easier transition for some people, because of all the things that you mentioned, Venmo, PayPal CashApp, do you think, like, like, Now it's an easier time for people to understand that transition because we're already dealing with digital money, but now it's a transition from digital money to actual digital assets or like, you know, crypto virtual assets, depending on how you want to categorize it.

Tonya: I love the way that you categorize that. I think it's absolutely true. This is just. You know, because it has these, because cryptocurrencies have the attributes of money, but also capital assets, it makes it a really interesting, and the fact that it's programmable. Something can change its character and nature both at the the blockchain layer and the token or coin itself.

Really fascinating. You add smart contracts into that. It just, every once in a while. We have a technology that presses and becomes intention with the law so much that it requires its own thing. , right? Yeah. You need either, as we see the SEC and the CFTC and treasury all kind of wrangling, right from the, the, the regulatory aspect we see over in the first branch of government committees and subcommittees wrangling over who's in charge, et cetera, that shows you how pervasive and how.

Probably concerning. This is this technology is in in that regard. With respect to talking about going from cash to crypto safely, legally and confidently, I think it does have to do with providing just another Thank you. Take care. means of transacting, something that I think from, and I don't think it's too early to start talking about what the money will be or the ability to exchange value in an intergalactic realm.

Our money currently issued by governments or fiat is beholden to borders. And we spend a lot of money and blood to protect it. We see not only rumors of wars this time, but wars. Tax people to raise money to defend borders. What happens when we are not beholden to a border? And that, this is the beginning of that.

Tonya: And so to fail to even learn the language or understand where it came from, why it exists and the potentials.

I just think you're doing yourself, it's a greater risk to not learn at this point. It was easier to 2011, nobody knew except you know, Cypherpunks at that time, 2014, 2015. Ethereum comes on the scene with the gangster lean. We got the boom and bust in 2017, 2018 of initial coin offerings, most of which were unregistered securities, right?

People took some licks because they got in because they wanted quick money. I love quick money, but I don't love a scam. Like when people say get rich quick, it usually is followed by the word scam or scheme. But if the alternative is not to get rich. At all, or slowly. I'll take fast, but you got to learn faster. And that's what the book is for.

Stephen: And those that got rich quick, let's really think about those. I got rich quick in crypto, probably lost a ton of crypto. Like you have to get wrecked a couple of times before you're the big player. Like you're not going to win big on NFTs. By just investing in your first NFT, you'd have the loss of money in the ICO.

You'd have to understand who the players are. So technically it looks like it, like, it's like saying like your career, right? It's like overnight success. Yeah, it might seem so, but it's, you know, the countless failures and rejections and coming back even stronger. And, you know, it must take a lot as entrepreneurs to come up with your own book and your own course, who will attend.

There's so many aspects of that. I really want to dial in on the, you know, you mentioned marginalized communities. Yeah.

Stephen: Because I think, and you mentioned Tom Brady. I think our communities are more likely to invest in something that Tom Brady says. Then listen to somebody in their own community, even if it's someone as educated as yourself because of that, you know, they want to, you know, I think historically black professionals have, or, you know, black people that have made money have also had to prey on other black people in order to make that money.

I use Drake as an example, although I'm from Toronto, we love Drake, you know, when I see him advertising gambling and steak on, you know, Instagram, it's like Drake's such an artist. He complements so many different initiatives that we have here on Canada with creativity and music making. Like, why are you focusing on gambling on Instagram?

Because that's what people are then going to want to be like you want to do. What is your thought about, you know, how can the Black and Brown community get past maybe some of the, the sizzle and get to the stake, like your book and your courses to actually make generational wealth versus just like going for the Hail Marys and getting rich quickly.

Tonya: The mindset comes from a fundamental appreciation of what it means to build wealth, as opposed to make money, right? You can be a high net worth individual, no, you can be a high income earner, excuse me, and still live paycheck to paycheck. In the United States, and I suspect in Canada as well, you can correct me, this idea of being quote unquote middle class means you're just outside of poverty.

Because now you can get credit, which will cause crushing debt so that you can actually never get ahead.

Stephen: Right, and anxiety.

Tonya: Right? And anxiety. If the debt doesn't kill you, the worrying about the debt is going to kill you. And you constantly have to trade your time for money in order to maintain the status quo.

Stephen: Yeah, that's so true.

Tonya: And people always say, time is money. Time is money. Time is not money. Time is more valuable because it's finite as far as our understanding here on this planet right now. My intellect and my expertise and my creativity is now invested in things that will go out outside of this house and work harder than me.

So that I could spend more time with the people I love doing the things I enjoy and sleeping well at night.

Tonya: But this was a fundamental shift even for me. As a Gen Xer, I was raised to get a great education. Check that. Get a good equivalent of a good government job. So I worked in big law, hated it, but I technically, you know, I graduated with honors from law school, did well in undergrad, have this interesting background.

Like I'm tailor made for that and I'm excellent at what I do, but I felt like they checked the box to get me there and then gave me no support to stay, right? I was beholden to show up paying my time in order to get paid. To buy the house, to get the insurance, to get a burial plot, take a few vacations.

And evidently I've made it as the Blackarati. No, right. Because other than my 401k at the time or 403b when I started teaching, those were the, all the traditional things and you should own real estate. I've done all of those things. That is not enough in this day and age, particularly again, back to the mindset.

What you and I are talking about. It's not really about crypto.

Tonya: It's about freedom and what freedom feels like, looks like, and the fact that it actually is attainable is critically important to understand why capital assets, investing in things. Companies where people are willing to exchange their time for money, for assets that not only have their extrinsic intrinsic value, but also have the potential for a return on investment dividend stocks that pay you, all of those things where something is outside of you.

So I work less, but make more. That is where you start to sustain or to compress the wealth gap here in the United States and around the world between the majority in particular countries and the rest of us. When I think of the global majority, black and brown people outnumber, and this is not a race divide.

Yeah. This is a reality of the 1 percent of the 1 percent having all of the money and the rest of us left to fight with each other. I think that this environment, if we do it right, is the first time you can create indestructible wealth and really move the needle.

Stephen: Was there anything in the book that you're like, Oh man, it's published. I wish I could like amend this or I wish I could have changed the way I saw it just by what's happening now. Like, was there anything in the book that you were like, Oh, next time around, or maybe I'll do a bonus chapter when I get some time, was there anything that was left out that you wanted to cover?

Tonya: Every, the minute that you publish something is left out the next day. It is so difficult to write a book about crypto, which is why I think the myths are evergreen, committing more than the myths. And the last chapter is the, the kind of the step by step, but at a very high level of things that people should have, tools and resources.

I've actually combined the book with an online community that gives the regular updates because literally. Yeah. Important things happen the day after this goes to print. So you can expect many additions in the future. But when I think about it, one of the last. Chapters to get into the book was describing why crypto, the crypto ecosystem is bigger than just what, it's kind of like a pejorative term of this idea of crypto bro.

I know that OGs in the space don't like it, but I'm talking to new people. who have that idea as a myth. I actually got some heat for that. I was like, I literally said it was a myth. Why are you mad at me? I'm dispelling the myth. You should have read. Readers are leaders. Keep reading. And thank you for buying the book.

Because it wasn't about me calling out quote unquote crypto, but I was just saying, that's a myth. It's a pejorative term. Here's the idea of what it looks like and what people think of when they think of. Someone investing in crypto and why that's a myth.

Tonya: What I wish I had included in the chapter around this myth is more about black folks throughout the diaspora doing incredible things with Bitcoin in particular.

So I could have used more examples. I look forward to including more examples of not just here in the United States, because this is a global. Evolution and revolution and I would love in the next version of the book to expand it beyond, beyond, you know, North America so that people really get an understanding of how this technology, this revolution around money and other things is happening around the world.

Stephen: Yeah, I think, you know, as someone that trains professionals in Kenya and Nigeria from like a fundamentals and compliance lens, you know, you talk to them, they're like, Oh yeah, like Americans are like, Oh, we just go to the bank and we take out money. And that's the way it is. Like talk to Nigerians about that, about if they, could they get the money?

Would it take two or three months to get the money? If you're running a business, how do you run a business if you can't send funds cross border or even to a neighboring country? I think we don't realize it, but I think we got a sense of it when, Hey, we want to donate to the Ukraine. Oh, you can't use GoFundMe to that, for that, for military expenses.

We're here in Canada. Hey, we want to donate to, you know, use GoFundMe to donate to the convoy here, the Freedom Convoy. Yeah, the government's all of a sudden now going to take a big interest in cryptocurrency because they want to see who's donated. Like, we didn't see it that much, but the pandemic really showed us, like, if you have to do anything or talk to someone that's maybe moved or immigrated to the United States.

From even the UK or another country. How did they get their money here? How did they open up a bank account if they don't have any ID yet? Because they just moved. I don't think we realize the extent of it, but we definitely see it from like an underbanked, underserved community here in the United, well, where you are in the United States, there's still a large underserved community.

You teach at universities, so you're teaching maybe, I'm gonna assume, younger students or maybe a broad range of students. Is it, what's different now? Is it easier to teach them about cryptocurrency? Are they more susceptible to this and learning? I was just doing a training this morning talking to like MLROs or senior financial crime professionals, and it was very new to them.

Stephen: This cryptocurrency was very new. They thought the same thing. Scams I'm like, Oh, it's 2024,

Tonya: we're still doing this?

Stephen: We're still... yeah, like, maybe I should have, instead of training them, I should have just told them to go read your book. I would have made a little bit less money, but I would have saved myself an hour and a half of time.

We're still, and I guess this is the reason for the book, but is the, is the younger community more like, Oh, I understand NFTs. I understand crypto. Are they more susceptible to learning about cryptocurrency?

Tonya: They're more open because one, they have less risk aversion, which may be good and may be bad but also they, because they're digital natives and not just on a computer, but in the way that they transact.

You know, you described it earlier, tapping and, you know, Apple Pay and all the pays, right? And so it just makes sense in a way that those who, Gen Xers and those before me in particular, in late millennials, maybe even the idea of trusting somebody else or some app with your money just sounds crazy, right?

And my grandmother who died at 103, she looked like she would dress up to go to the bank. She'd dress up, and they all knew, Ms. Celeste, and you know, so that idea of having all of these The, you know, various and varied ways to pay is, is something that people have to learn over again. My students now, both at the law school, I have 17, I'm actually on leave, but the one course that I was like, I will come back and do that is my blockchain crypto and law course.

I was on a sabbatical to write the book last year. I'm on my own leave so I could do my trainings and my speaking and to do my book tour. But I thought it was important to go back and at least do my blockchain crypto and law. And there's 17 students enrolled and I've seen the numbers creep up over time.

That's a really. When you think of a relatively small school, and basically these electives are only available for 2Ls and 3Ls, those in their second year and third year. It's a big deal. They get it, and they want to learn about it, and they want to be the smartest person in the room when they go out for their jobs.

It's something that they can talk about at these firms, and they will instantly get their job because the lawyers know they need to know now. And no one, they look around and no one knows what the hell we're talking about. So it's much easier there, but we also can overstate the ease of it a bit. Just cause someone is a digital native and knows how to use Cash App and Venmo doesn't necessarily mean that they make good investment choices and decisions.

And so I don't want to overstate it, but they're more amenable to learning is the point.

Stephen: Talk about the legal profession because I think like we still don't see that many law firms that like in the ones we do like They're hyphenating blockchain. You can just tell that they're not That's always a giveaway that this may not be the law firm I want to be doing If I'm looking to go decentralized, totally decentralized.

Hilarious.

Stephen: Tell me about the legal profession. Are we seeing more legal professionals come around? Or is it still one of those spaces where the law firms are like and we have a couple crypto companies We give them standard advice, but they kind of just throw their hands up. Regulations are still vague.

When there's more regulations, we'll get into this space

Tonya: Any managing partner who sat around a table and said what you just said. And they say it all the time. They're in danger, not only of becoming irrelevant, but risking their license, the quadrant, both personally and professionally, where people don't know that they don't know is where people get into trouble.

And it's interesting that you mentioned it. I've been in a bunch of meetings because next I'll kind of give you a little breaking news

Stephen: yeah yeah yeah.

Tonya: You heard it here first and I'd love to come back and talk about it when it's more fully formed and we do official launch, but I think it's so important for professionals in general, lawyers, and financial advisors in particular to figure this out, have a plan.

have a discussion, one, about whether the technology and the assets are relevant or important for them to adopt, or at least how to advise this next wave of investors and also of business leaders and innovators in this space. And the, we're building the plane while we fly it. There is no better time to learn.

Where regulation and laws are going to be important, both how it challenges existing laws, norms, rules, and regulations, and how the technology and the laws that will provide the framework and the guardrails are literally being made now. To have an influence in that, or at least to understand the debate, the dialogue is important right now.

And so to that end, I'm going to be launching a Web3 Professional Institute basically a certificate. Blockchain, crypto, and law certificate for financial advisors, CPAs, and for lawyers. I'm actually going to start in my own lane of lawyers and then build it out and it will be focused on the Digital Economy Leadership Institute, or DELI, and it will focus specifically in a very short way.

Maybe three to five hours worth of modules, asynchronous plus live office hours, and then the option for membership. So for time for, excuse me, regular updates is going to be critically important. And why? Exchange traded funds for Spot Bitcoin and ETFs are coming. I know Gary Gensler didn't want to do it, but federal circuits, I mean, the federal court said you gotta do it and you can drag your feet as long as you want, but I, this is no longer a prediction to know in the first quarter of 2024, we will have a spot Bitcoin ETF. Will it be Grayscales? Will it be BlackRocks? We don't know about that, but we know it's coming.

Stephen: It's coming. We have them in Canada, somewhat in Canada. I mean, hello? Yeah, if we can imagine in Canada, it's funny, like a company Meet Amy is doing exactly that. Helping train wealth management professionals because like, this is going to be in demand and you're not going to have years to go to school. You're going to, the demand is going to be instant. That's right.

You have to be ready. And this is what I tell people. It's like, you're not going to have time to learn about it when the time is right. You're going to have to learn about it now and be ready and stay ready.

Tonya: That's right.

Stephen: I know we only have a few minutes left. You talked about Operation Choke Point 2. 0. I've seen you on the news talk about, you talk a little bit about regulation. You have to kind of talk about what you see as some of the challenges. What is Operation Choke Point 2. 0? If you can give us a two minute high level and you know, are we easing away from that as more as like. Some of the powers like Gary Gensler's are being slightly removed and the challenges of the SEC are, you know, coming back to the SEC is not winning all these cases.

Tonya: No, they're losing. They're on a losing streak right now. It's unfortunate that it's taken so long because the technology marches on. Other countries move forward.

You see all the work. It. For so many other countries, Singapore, Bahamas, you know, when I think of Zug, Switzerland, and Switzerland being like, you know, Crypto Valley, the same way we have Silicon Valley, like it's so, it's almost so 20th century, right? Regulation now is I Is coming to a head and it's not a matter of if, but when, and certainly what, like what will be the guiding principle that is the optimal balance between supporting innovation in the same way that many of these rules, laws, and norms originated around the internet?

Like, we didn't have a difficult time figuring out why that was important. I think what we see now is using the same technology, cryptography's been around forever, the internet now, and peer to peer technology, but now we're using it to exchange value. We're encroaching on the purview of the government.

They didn't like that so much, right? But it's the same thing, the cat is out, the horse is out of the barn. You can't stop Bitcoin and anything else that's fully decentralized, so, like, we need to move to a new conversation. The regulatory morass in the United States is very problematic. We're no longer talking about education of legislators and regulators, although there should be no shortage of it.

Now they're just trying to figure out, how do we contain it? It's like, well, once you get past that and realize you can't, now let's figure out what that looks like. What our government's working on, what other governments are moving forward with is a. digital currency. So, it's more about the customer service problem and the competition

Stephen: Yeah, you just mentioned competion like they're viewing it as comp CBDC is viewing it as a competition.

Tonya: and so with the onboarding of the central bank, digital currencies and, you know, as we said, that competition between Bitcoin and everything else, I think the government has been in the position of cutting off access to banking or making it very, very difficult for crypto companies to get a bank and to not only.

thrive, but just survive at this point. And the, it's kind of, right. So, you know, it goes back to during the long story short, Obama's administration, where there was an actual policy called choke point 1. 0. And at the time they were cutting off access to payday lenders or any. You know, a company or service or industry deemed to be unfit.

Now, there's nothing on the books that we can see with Chokepoint 2. 0, but it's in effect having the same impact without having an actual policy because that policy was struck down. So here we are, and it may be challenging, but every bank is coming online, and we, particularly because of ETFs being offered for portfolios for investment purposes, you know, hear us now and listen to us later.

But tomorrow it'll cost you more. So right now it just costs 24. Yeah. You know, cautiously.

Stephen: I think a lot of people think that they're going to come with the best regulators, they might take longer to come to the table, but the U. S. might come with the most comprehensive regulations, even more comprehensive than MECA and places in the EU and, you know, maybe there in Dubai.

Tonya, thank you so much.

Stephen: Where can people find you? Like you have so many places, your podcast, the book, the courses. Where's that central point where people can get everything that you're doing?

Tonya: Everything will be found at advantageevans.com. If you go to advantageevans.com, you can find a range of opportunities and options.

And certainly you can find digital money demystified wherever books are sold. So, Stephen, thank you so much.

Stephen: Got to get a copy. Was it Advantage Evans because of like Tennis Advantage? Yes. Oh, you see what I did. You see, I get it. I'm there. I'm there. I'm honed in. I'm honed in. Thank you so much. We really appreciate your time.

And we can't really wait till this episode is released. The first thing in the new year to get people going, especially with the price going up, people need to get this book down, demystify some of those myths so they can move forward and hopefully profit, or at least have some long term sustainability in this asset class. Thank you so much

Tonya: Thank you

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