Stephen: This is your host Stephen Sargent. We go around the world for the Around The Coin podcast today to talk to our Yasser Alobaidan, who's the co-founder of Throughput Research Labs. They are transforming the infrastructure when it comes to Web3 gaming. But he's based in Saudi Arabia, so we talk about the innovation and e gaming You know, landscape in Saudi Arabia.

We talk about how they're leading the digital transformation, as well as we talked a lot about ESG and sustainability. We talked a little bit about carbon credits, and we talk about NEOM, the amazing project that's happening in Saudi Arabia. We also talk about things like their bid for, you know, the World Cup.

In 2034, their Olympic proposals as well as these cities that are being built up, handmade, but how they're balancing ESG with culture, technology, innovation, and digital transformation by still remaining faithful to some of their core principles around religion. This is a powerful episode. I guarantee you're going to learn 4 points or 5 points about Saudi Arabia that you never knew before.

So tune in because there's a lot of opportunities there, especially if you're an entrepreneur or a tech or payments guru. This is kind of the new Dubai, when Dubai was kind of Dubai. Talk soon.

Stephen: This is your host, Stephen Sargent, Around The Coin Podcast. We have a guest from halfway around the world, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. We have Yasser Alobaidan co-founder of Throughput Research Labs. Yasser, give us, you know, the three minute pitch of who you are and what you've been up to up until this point.

Yasser: Thank you Stephen for hosting this show and it's amazing. I have seen a lot of podcasts. I'm really excited to be with you tonight or today. Depends on the time. Well, I am a serial entrepreneur. I started my business and actually my time and career back in 2000 working with Ericsson for seven years.

Hardcore in telecom, built a lot of technologies and networks with multiple operators. Then I worked with Sienna Telecom, a US company, and was the managing director in the Middle East. Then I started Jawraa, and that was the first company that we started focusing on digital transformation. And from there we move on from Jawraa to creating the holding Therawad Technology, where we start doing a lot of R& D on technology all the way to focusing on blockchain technology back in 2021.

And since then I love that area. Yeah. It's. This is the new area where you can make a fortune by innovating new technologies.

Stephen: Tell me about your telco days. It was from like 2000 to 2012. What was a hot topic back in telco? Was it like mobile gaming? Like the, the, the iPhone was mature at that stage. So I'm sure there was a lot of discussions. Like what were the, what were the, now that AI is like the leading topic in every conversation, every conference you go to, what was the topic of conversation back when you were in telco?

Yasser: 2001, the biggest hype was having a colored phone, a colored screen, because everything was, you know, black and white. So that was the hype in 2001. In 2002, there was the first internet on your mobile. So with a speed of 9. 8 kilobits per second, that was a big high. And since then, innovation starts growing up and up until you think the technologies do we have today, basics, but they came across the past 20 years with a lot of, of big things at that time.

Today, we think they are basic.

Stephen: Talk to me. I don't know

Yasser: But internet was the major thing.

Stephen: Where was M Pesa, like, I don't know if you're around. I don't know exactly how old M Pesa is. I believe at least 10 to 15 years old. When they use that, like, you know, airtime on your phone to transact, like, was that revolutionary in the telco space? Like, the kind of, you know, payments or fintech or, you know, money transfer using phones, like, what was that like in the industry?

Yasser: There was no payments over your phone. It's just in 2000 and before that, it's just an SMS and, and a voice. 98, actually, it was the SMS came in. And before that, there was Bezier. I don't know if you remember that, but these are the technologies at that time. Payment came in and on the phone late in 2014, maybe, or 13.

Not, not before that.

Stephen: Awesome. Is there anything that you see now in like blockchain technology that you would think it could be applied back then? Like, as you get into blockchain, like, oh, that would easily solve some of the issues we might have been having back in the telco industry that maybe now telcos are starting to look into or get involved with.

Yasser: I, I, I think there are a couple of things. If blockchain was back available, it will solve a lot. The first thing I see is the identity management, where there's a lot of anyone can, you know, release a phone and so forth. And second is the payments and the way you, you do payments filling your, your phone with some credits and so forth.

Stephen: That's amazing. Let's set the stage. Before we get into the work you're doing now with Throughput Labs, you know, you were one of the leaders when it came to digital transformation. What are your thoughts about the region? Like the MENA region doesn't always come up when it comes to innovation or technology.

That's usually the APAC region. I think that's usually a leader in that space. Where are we in the MENA region? Maybe those that don't live there don't see it, but you're like, hey, we do so much innovation here. Kind of set the landscape. Where are we with innovation and technology or even digital transformation in the MENA region?

Yasser: So let's go to facts. Saudi is number two globally and the most This is one of the best digitally available technologies when it comes to digital governments, digital identity, all the services. So a smart city and smart government, Saudi, part of the G20, is the second best available after Japan. So this is a very good indication of where the Middle East is.

And it's not only Saudi, but the entire Middle East now is. Taking that further up, we have the organization for you know, international digital organization who are connecting the world. And we want as part of our vision to be one of the top leaders globally in digital technology.

Stephen: What do you think positions Saudi Arabia to be that, you know, global leader? Is it like obviously lots of capital and resources there or is it like a progressive government stance? We saw that in Dubai. Governments, you know, were pushing for innovation and you saw the metaverse and the investment there.

What do you think positions Saudi as one of the bigger leaders in this space?

Yasser: I think number one is not about money because money you can find it many, many countries. There are lots of wealthy countries from the U. S. to the Europe and so forth. I think we have very clear vision and we have very long strategy. It's not a short term strategy. And that When we have this and we have the vision of 2030 with the right communication, the right focus, that take us you know, frog leap, leap to, to, to where we are today.

Stephen: How do you balance? Like, we have a lot of, you know, professionals coming on this. Founders, payments, tech, crypto, AI professionals coming on this podcast. When you're dealing with digital transformation, how do you have a long term strategy with, like, new technologies? How do you figure out what's the shiny ball syndrome versus, like, hey, this is gonna be sustainable?

Especially because you're in the ESG space as well. Like, how do you figure out what's gonna be sustainable versus, like, what's gonna be fly by night? Metaverse, there's a hype, then there's a downfall, then nobody talks about it. How do you kind of strategize and prioritize without being wrong, right?

Yasser: Yeah, personally speaking I look at the vision of the country, 2030 vision of Saudi Arabia gave us a lot of directions and As an entrepreneur or business, if you have very clear direction where you go, then you look at the large initiatives that there are in, in, in the market. And then we look at and study the pain points.

Once you find the pain points and you find a technological solution, then this is where innovation comes in. We try to find solutions to solve these pain points and make that vision faster or better or sustainable.

Stephen: That's awesome. What's Java? Like, I know it's a digital transformation, but there seems to be a lot of connection with government agencies. A lot of connection with the community as a whole and a lot of huge stakeholders. You're almost building the ecosystem, it seems like, for digital transformation across the, across the country.

Can you describe a little bit of what Jawraa is?

Yasser: So the name Jawraa means Green Valley so it's an Arabic name but Jawraa when it started, we were looking at digital transformation as a way of looking at The Vision 2030, looking at governments objectives and try to meet them using this technology. So we start doing this and through time, we prove to governments and corporates that we are a very good arm for them and support.

And that's how we grow the business here. In Saudi, but not only in Saudi, but on a regional level in Kuwait, UAE and so forth. When we look at digital transformation, it's not about technology. And this is where we always, you know, pitch it to organizations and NGOs. It is a full change management.

The mindset has to be automation. The mindset has to be, you know, Improvements and efficiencies and sustainability. Once you have that mindset, then we prepare the right communication, and then we go and look at the pain points, the systems, the workflow. Once we finish all this, then we look at what technologies that will help us to reach that.

So technology, in our perspective, is maybe 10 15% of the overall digital transformation, where there is a lot of work that we do in the beginning to support this transformation.

Stephen: That's so interesting. Like when I hear digital transformation and probably me and all the listeners and probably a lot of the companies you're pitching to, they go right to technology and apps and, you know, blockchains, but you're saying that that's just a small portion to get, it's just a whole mindset shift.

As well as putting the right processes in place for people to want to change. I guess it's probably the hardest part is getting people to change, not the technology that will help them change.

Yasser: Yes, that's 100% true because the worst case is to go and jump into providing the right technologies and you find resistance. You find, you know, a lot of people that are not enabled. So you need to enable the team, you need to have a full forecast on vision and what you want this technology to do before you proceed implementing the technology.

Stephen: What I see is very interesting in such a progressive technology focus. We're going to talk a little bit about Neom. You mentioned Smart Cities. Is the inclusion of technology, automation blockchains, but also like the preservation of nature. How do you balance, like how hard is it to balance have a smart city where there's no cars, but you also have this forest, lush forest area.

Like how hard is that to kind of keep the nature, but also, you know, stack as much as you can in the areas where you're building up an ecosystem.

Yasser: That's, it's a very hard question to answer and many people have different views. In my opinion, innovation and creating new cities like NEOM is trying to test boundaries. We are always used to create cities on a circular basis. That's from, you know, the rock age until today. And NEOM says, no, we want to change that concept.

We're We can create different ways of living and trying to use the technology for sustainability to use it without impacting the environment. So this is one area. The other area is, especially when it comes to the Saudi Green Initiative, planting 10 billion trees. This is one of the vision of Saudi by 2040.

And this means planting 22 of the entire Saudi. And just to give you a perspective, Saudi is the size of Western Europe, the entire Western Europe. That's how big is Saudi. And 22 that's the entire area of the empty desert today in Saudi. And distributing that all over Saudi, it's a big challenge.

So, balancing between high tech and sustainability is very challenging. But having the right plans around it and measuring these plans on a yearly basis, that's the most important thing today.

Stephen: part does faith play in this? And I'm not going to get into religion, but you know, there, I was in Dubai a couple of times last year, there's a strong faith, there's a strong, you know, community around the religion. You know, we had somebody here that talked about Muslim finance and, you know, he was trying to take that into web three, and he even said, there's obviously going to be some pushback from certain people within that community.

When you're building all this innovation and digital transformation, it's Do you see maybe the older generation that wants to preserve some of the traditions or they don't feel that automation and technology is the path for them?

Yasser: So the entire vision of 2030 is around culture and values. So we are not removing these aside and throwing them away. Actually, they are in the heart of inclusion. So it's not only for the 10 years old, it's also for the 80 years old who wants culture and wants religion and wants to be connected as well.

So, I don't think religion plays into Choose between technology or your religion. No, it's app. The entire vision is around inclusion.

Stephen: I love that. I love the way, it always seems that, you know, the Middle East is very thoughtful with things like that, like sustainability. But also, in order to do the things that you and others are doing in the Middle East, You kind of have to have that buy in from the community or none of it works. So it's, it always seems like there's a real focus on all the different priorities, not just one, you know, angle like, Hey, we need to put up this city so we can bring in investors and, you know, bring in money.

There always seems like the very thoughtful around culture, around sport, around family. That's so interesting that I see that. What is it like? Cause you're dealing with a lot of public sector companies. I know governments are very, I think in North America where I live, governments are a little tricky to deal with.

They take a long time, you know, they're talking one day and then, you know, it's not an initiative. By the time you do get maybe an agreement in place, The government has changed and a new president comes in. What is it like working with a government in the Middle East? They seem a lot more progressive, but I'm assuming the same red tapes involved when you're trying to do something like digital transformation.

Yasser: Well, if you talk about governments the way they were back in 2015 and beyond, and, and before then yes, they are more of like you, as very slow and very poor. Today, governments in the region are more progressive. Actually, they work longer hours than private. They are the ones who are pushing the boundaries and trying new technologies and trying to do more than you can expect.

And that's why we are happy and have been always happy to support government agencies because they also Meet the vision. And when we work with governments or corporates, for me is I'm trying to build. My community, it's also for my family. I want that progress and to progression and, and support to add to my, the values of my kids and how they will live in five, 10 years.

And the second point you mentioned about resistance, this, we did not see it in the old changes that we have seen in the past 10 years. Because again, communication is number one priority. If you want to have everyone following you, you have to tell them what is the vision, how we are going to do it, what are the steps, what values we will have, what inclusions we will get in there.

And that's where we get everyone aligned in this community. You can ask. You can ask a 7 year old, what is Vision 2030, and they can tell you. And you can ask an 80 year old, what is Vision 2030, and they can still tell you from their own perspective. And they all align to the same direction.

Stephen: Is there any opposition to the vision for 2030? Like, obviously, in North America, there's always an opposition to the government. Is there any opposition to this? And then, maybe, what are some of their points that they're bringing up as to, like, why the government shouldn't be moving in this direction?

Yasser: I haven't seen opposition as much as I have seen maybe doubters. And doubters, they fade by time, by beliefs. Once you prove the point, Then they align with you. So when the Vision 2030 back in 2016 or 17 announced, everyone saw the, many of the Saudis were reluctant or, you know, don't know, but many globally doubted that we deliver. We delivered, step by step, and if you've seen the progress that Saudi has in the past nine, eight years, it's amazing, and all these doubters, you know, fade out, and most of them now align and understand what and where we are going.

Stephen: That's amazing. Now, let's get to throughput. You have a research lab there. And it's interesting, with all the, you know, different niches within Web3, you've really settled in, into this, you know, Web3 iGaming infrastructure. Why did you decide to go there? You, you know, you've worked in ESG, you've worked in Telco.

What, like, what was the thing where you're like, hey, you know, Web3 gaming, that is the area we want to focus on when it comes to our lab, our research lab.

Yasser: So why gaming as an industry has different technologies than computing, regular computing? That's the same thing when we look at blockchain gaming. The main issue here is you want the technology to provide you a fast response. You don't want a delay in your gaming experience. So it is always about how you can do the best throughput.

And that relationship and having gaming and Web3 will add a lot of value in the blockchain industry. Today, most of the blockchain technologies on layer zero infrastructure, they were looking at short bits and bytes of identifying the wallet, the user, and then verifying that information. But when it comes to gaming Then you need a lot more data, but it has to be there on time.

If you are wearing your, your gears to fight in a game, you don't want these gears to come after five minutes of, of choosing them. You want them instantly there. And this is where throughput came in to solve that pain of speed and technology at the same time.

Stephen: And speed's one of those things, like even the lag in the internet. You're around a child, if you see a lag or a ping, I'm not getting enough ping, you can see how speed plays such a huge part, especially when you're playing against people internationally, right? You're not in the same room that you were back in the 90s when I was playing video games.

What's interesting is you mentioned layer zero. We don't hear this term a lot, with so many L2s coming onto the market. And L2s were kind of like, Hey, we love Bitcoin. We love Ethereum, but we want to niche down. Ethereum is too broad and we want to do a specific function and Ethereum is not great for that, but we'd love to leverage the security and the infrastructure of Ethereum to build on top of it.

We don't hear much about layer zero. What is layer zero? And you know, what, what are some of the instances that are being built on layer zero right now?

Yasser: So layer zero consider it as the technology on how. To define your layer one, which is the protocol. When you say Ethereum or Bitcoin or any of the technologies there are, then these are layer one. This is the way the computer and the technology will talk to the user at the higher layers. So layer zero is, is looking at how we will do the computing between the protocols and the speed and the throughput and the latency and the amount of data that will generate and making sure that it is communicated with other servers to ensure the data is exchanged and verified through the, the, the blockchain infrastructure.

Stephen: And if you did it on Layer 2, you couldn't really adjust the speed, like, could you not adjust things like speed and data on Layer 2, or you kind of have to do it before it touches the protocol?

Yasser: So if you look at it from an internet perspective, let's, let's go to web two and web one. Layer zero is, is the infrastructure where you connect server to another server and how they talk to each other. Then you have the IP level, which is layer three. Then you have the application level, which is level layer seven, and blockchain technology.

The layer zero as how these. Computers, or what we call the RPCs, will communicate with each other to exchange that data because it's decentralized. So they have to communicate with each other a lot and they have to exchange this data. We need to make sure that with throughput, it's very high speed. They communicate very fast and they understand the language.

And then you add the layers. Layer one, which is all the protocols there is, and then layer two, which is the wallet. Layer three is the, the platforms where you can exchange these services.

Stephen: Awesome. Now, what was the biggest issues you saw in Web 3 gaming? Now, speed, obviously, was a huge one. Was there anything else that you find that, I'm assuming you're speaking to some of the biggest protocols in Web 3?

Yasser: Yeah. yeah, latency is the number one issue that Throughbuilt is trying to solve and this is where we develop a lot of engineering in the layer zero to solve the latency and have it clearly faster to exchange data from layer four all the way to layer zero to the other servers on the other side of the world.

Stephen: And, you know, we saw Web3 gaming, like, completely go insane in 2021 with the addition of NFTs being paid out a lot of game theory around, you know, receiving NFTs, play to earn games. What do you think happened? What did companies do wrong back in Web 3? Or maybe what could they have done differently since, you know, we saw a lot of those companies, A, go out of business, and we just saw the market interest fall in these games.

Was it the game theory that we're doing wrong? The, the incentives for users were skewed the wrong way. What do you think some of the challenges were in Web 3 gaming and how do you think throughput's going to be able to solve for some of those challenges?

Yasser: NFT, like any other technology, is a great technology that has been misused. And that's why you have seen images, pixels, that have been sold at crazy numbers, 1 million and above. The technology is there to solve. Not to brag about it. So we need to find a way to solve these problems because any technology that will come, even in the future, there will be a lot of people trying to misuse it and make quick monies.

But that quick money will fade and then people will try to use it improperly. For me, the way I see NFT is an incredible way of digital asset and you might also link it to physical asset. And this is where gaming can play a role. Today, lots of the games you play with it, you purchase some, a lot of services there and A hat or a gun or whatever, but then after five, six days, you finish the game, you go to another game, which is like phase two or, you know, disc two and nothing is stored and you cannot utilize it.

Then you have to purchase again. With NFT, you can carry on these assets to your other games. You can carry them with you. You own these assets. You are not having the right of usage only, but you can carry them from game to game. And this is the idea where Metaverse came in and they failed because it was also misused.

So the way I look at it today is a microverse where you need to create these small multiverses of, of tech, you know. Spaces where you can innovate, but then you can carry your assets from one location to another and from one microverse to another.

Stephen: And who, what's the customer relationship? Give me the use case. Why are customers like, Hey, throughput research. We really knew need you, I'm assuming it's going to be like Web3 game developers are like, Hey, we have this suite of games, we want to make sure there's interoperability. Or it could be like NFT platforms are like, Hey, we want to integrate , our NFTs into a Web3, as you said, multiverse.

Like who's approaching you for business?

Yasser: So, gamers are mostly are the ones who are approaching us for business in terms of, you know, especially in our throughput lab here in Saudi Arabia. And the way we look at it is how we can use blockchain technology in our game design. So imagine me and you playing football, the . Football

Stephen: all of a sudden now Saudis know about real football 'cause you guys got all the star soccer players.

Yasser: So we are playing Soccer and I bought a jersey representing my team. I bought players being in my and I want that to be instant. I don't want it to go and calculate and I want players to come in, go from the pitch to the game. The throughput technology allows this instantly. Later on, I go to another FIFA game on Xbox instead of PlayStation, I can carry that.

Real jersey that I bought back with PlayStation to Xbox because this is my asset and I own it.

Stephen: That's a really good point. I think that makes like a nice clear example. You educated me on, you know, the innovation in Saudi Arabia. What's the gaming industry like in Saudi Arabia? Once again, I go back to thinking, you know, APAC is the leader in the space when it comes to gaming and, you know, especially when it comes to Web3, we saw a lot of, you know, growth in place like the Philippines, especially in Vietnam, Taiwan, especially with Play to Earn.

Where is Saudi, do you think, in the interest in Web3 gaming?

Yasser: So Saudi last month hosted the world e game or eSport championship in Saudi. And the winner the Saudi team called Falcon. So this is how big is Saudi gaming. For the past five years, the number one player that wins the international championships in esports and soccer PlayStation or soccer Xbox as a Saudi champion.

So this is shows where Saudi is. Saudi and from a rating point of view is the highest. Use of e gaming around the world is number one ratio. So we have, we are so passionate about technology. Saudi is one of the youngest generations, more than 70 under the age of 30. And that's how, and you see that a lot of gamers in Saudi playing internationally and winning prizes and launching the championships here in Saudi for the past few years.

Stephen: I did not know that. I also don't follow e gaming that much, but talk to me about the e gaming synergy then, because, you know, I know Roblox, my kids play that, e gaming's huge, but still on the Web 2 premise of gaming. How can, why aren't these Roblox and other, these large e gaming, the Fortnites, why aren't they looking into blockchain technology, Web3 gaming?

Why are they doubling down? We're seeing, you know, PayPal's getting into stablecoins. We're seeing a lot of traditional players get into crypto, blockchain, and stablecoins, but you don't hear too many iGame partnerships with, you know, with these Web3 gaming brands or using protocols like yourself as part of their infrastructure.

Do you know why that is?

Yasser: So, let me take you back to 2000. There was a technology called GPRS, Edge, then WCTMA, and you never heard about them, but you heard about 2G, 3G, 4G, and this is, these are backend technologies. Blockchain is a backend technology. So, people within that technology, they know it, they know how to use it. But you, from consumer point of view, You don't want to hook them into a technology, you want to hook them into experience.

So that's how, that's why you don't hear that much because it's a back end technology, not a front end, not a consumer based.

Stephen: And there's no benefit for like, hey, you own your thing, but you might lose it if you misplace your private key. There's no benefit in that, I think, for most, you know, everyday consumer

Yasser: They will see it from a user experience, from a customer experience, they will See that people will say if you buy it in here, then you can use it there and you know It's easy to buy. It's easy to move your assets. You own the assets. We don't only You know, sell you the right of use. So you will see this communication from a user experience But then you have to say, you will not see it, okay, you can buy Ethereum or you, you will be on a, a, a blockchain or you need to have a wallet on Binance and so forth.

You will see it from a user experience, what are the values that the user will have.

Stephen: You know, what's interesting I see with gaming, we're seeing a lot of like, not fidgetal, but we're also seeing a lot of transition from the iGaming world to the real world. You know, there's race car drivers that started on simulations. And now they're in legitimate official race car divisions racing, and now you're seeing more people see those stories.

Is there any, you mentioned physical, I don't know exactly what you, where direction you were going, but do you see that kind of synergy where the, they're playing Fortnite, but that's now opened up things like Lasertag or actual physical activities where they can actually play similar to the real games or virtual reality, you know, we see a lot of those popping up, virtual reality settings where people are there physically, but in a virtual reality world.

Do you see that transition from, you know, in person physical activity from the gaming world?

Yasser: I think the best way of. Enabling technology is merging the technology between reality and virtual. So, I'm a big fan of Formula One. That's why you see, you know, the Formula One hats and the cabin software. So imagine I'm going to Formula One and I saw Max Verstappen and I'm in love with that guy. I want his autograph.

And if he stays there to sign autograph, there'll be hundreds of people jumping to him. So, imagine that instead of Sitting and doing that is passing NFT to everyone. And that allows us to go and collect an an autograph from the store. We will enable the store to buy more, but we will have an authentic justification, no, just certificate that says this is an authentic autograph.

Giving from Max Verstappen and his visit to Riyadh or to Jeddah for the Formula One. That's a very quick example of how we can merge technology and NFT with physical. The same thing, if you got that hat, why don't I carry that hat of Max Verstappen in my play when I have the NFT with it, in my games in Formula One.

That's how we connect physical with virtual.

Stephen: And you can show the status of Fanfare. Where are you with Fan Tokens? Is Fan Tokens, you know, you know, I was, you know, producing a podcast for Chainalysis where they talked to the, the CEO of Socios, and they have the Fan Tokens across all the Premier Leagues. But I don't hear people talk a lot about fan tokens Although, there's a huge supply and demand for it. You don't hear it come up in very many conversations. Where do you see fan tokens from your side? Is this something that's big? Or it's like, you know about it, but people don't really talk about it. There's just like really big fans utilize it.

Yasser: There was a lot of hype three years, four years ago about FAN tokens. And I'm one of the early adapters. So I went and bought a lot of tokens for, for teams that I love. I don't know what happens with them.

Stephen: you wait till the next big spike, don't worry, you'll figure out.

Yasser: Exactly. So the thing is, again unless you have a value connecting that virtual asset with real life. And this is the story that I told about MaxFor7, for example. You will not get much. It's just a hype for the early adapters, but not a real use case for, for general people.

Stephen: What do you see is traditionally, now that proper football, a lot of, you know, top tier players like Ronaldo are coming to the Saudi leagues. Do you see a huge emergence of proper soccer? Or proper football. Do you hear that a lot more than maybe like five, six years ago or when you were in the telco industry?

Yasser: Now, football has been number one game for Saudi entire region. Way, way before Ronaldo. So we, it's just not like because of Ronaldo, everyone is watching football. No, no, we have been watching football since I was like three years old. I have been playing football since I was seven years old. So that's not that's not something new.

Having Ronaldo and, and Neymar and all the, you know, big superstars in Saudi Internationally, people know about Saudi more and that's, that's the soft media that we, we like. And that's where people know more about Saudi in general, but also about our players. And that improves the skills of local players as well to compete in these big camps.

Stephen: That must be tough for local players to have to compete on that level. They're like, yo, they were the best, they were the best on the team and now they're shipping in all this talent. And, you know, I read one of your LinkedIn posts where you talked about 2034, the World Cup bid for the World Cup from Saudi.

It's funny because it's going to be here in North America, I believe is the next World Cup mixed between different places within North America. So we're hoping to catch a game. How big would that be for a country that is obviously thriving when it comes to, you know, international soccer?

Yasser: I think it plays with the vision of 2030, there are lots going on, so 2034 is just to show the world. What we have done in the past decade or so and improving quality of life, improving technology and enhancing ESG and so forth. So all the vision of 2030 will be completed by 2030, but we are not stopping there.

There's more. 2040 Vision, 2050 Vision, and so forth, and 2034 is just a showcase of what has been done the past decade.

Stephen: Was there anything in the 2030 vision that really resonated with you? Was there one thing that you saw and you're like, Oh, that is my jam. That is something I can get on board that you felt very strongly about? Maybe more so than some of the other items that were listed?

Yasser: Okay, so, yes, of course, I'm a tech savvy, so, when I saw that Saudi wants to be one of the top ten, globally you know, technology leaders by 2030, then that's that's where I can reside and focus. And that excites me a lot. And because of that, we looked at technologies and we looked at enhancements and support.

And having clear vision, then we have the right R& D to focus on how to deliver that, that vision. And I'm looking forward to come at 2030 and say, yes, we made it, but we already have made that. We made the news back in 2022, announcing and the G20. which was hosted in Saudi, actually in 2020 during the pandemic.

The G20 was hosted in Saudi Arabia and because of the pandemic everything was done online and Saudi announced that we will generate You know, this and we have been the second best out of the 20 the G20 countries in terms of digital readiness. The second part which excites me, and many people around this region, is moving from a country where a consumer base, To a country with an economic and export base.

And this is where innovation stays in the heart of it. We are always used to just buy things from outside, bring them in and use them. Today, We want to innovate, we want to create, and we want to export this and create that through a digital economy. Where I speak a lot on LinkedIn about it, is, is, is an excitement for me, and that's what gives me the passion to work every day.

Stephen: And I love that because, you know, we're so used to like raw materials as being the only way to, you know, export things over the last maybe two, three hundred years. And now we've really moved into this space where intellectual property, you know, digital creations, Can really be, you know, part of your GDP, like it's never had the opportunity before.

Yasser: True, and that's why I think blockchain, today, is an opportunity for any country and any individual who wants to innovate.

Stephen: Talk to me about the, like, you know, when you have a place like Saudi Arabia, there's a lot of, you know, in order to realize 2030, there has to be a huge capital investment by the government. how is throughput able to navigate that? Like, how are you able to. Cause now it's coming through the government.

There's got, I'm assuming going to be a tighter regulatory requirements, or it might be just tougher to get funding. How do you kind of navigate that regulatory environment?

Yasser: So when we look at blockchain technology, it's everywhere. There's a question of legitimacy and, and, and that technology. And there are three areas where we are trying to solve. One is the identity. And you know, globally, the issues of terrorism and the anti terrorism act where we need to know where this money goes.

And so having a You know, digital currency is an issue if I don't know the identity of that person. The second is the hacking and digital hacking and where this is your money and you need to be protected. So we need to know how to protect that because many people will lose money today. There's more than, I think, on a daily basis.

Bitcoin is globally more than 3 billion lost in thefts and digital using, you know, hackers around the world. And this is an issue that will grow with the cryptocurrency and so forth. So having the right regulation is very important to enhance technology. But blockchain is not about only crypto, and this is where Most of my time is focusing on non crypto technology.

It's a blockchain. So digital asset is non crypto. I can protect my asset digitally. That's not crypto. I don't need to buy and sell using Bitcoin in order to have a digital asset. I still can use my credit card to buy Bitcoin. Again, for example, on the sustainability and TGE company, we, every tree that we plant, we have an NFT for the location of the tree and for the price and the amount of carbon.

This is just to show transparency of what we are doing from planting the trees. That's not crypto, and that's where we try to find technologies that are, from regulation, crypto is very sensitive, so we try to avoid that and go and build technologies. With throughput, are trying to solve latency, we are trying to solve gaming experience.

We are not going there to sell and buy crypto credits. So this is where we, we try to find ourselves. We navigate around regulation.

Stephen: you still need certain licenses, registrations? I know in certain parts of the Middle East, you need blessings from, you know, the elders or authorities. Like, where do you stand from throughputs when it comes to necessary approvals to run what you're doing?

Yasser: So blockchain is very well enabled in Saudi Arabia from a non crypto perspective. We have done a lot of programs with governments and non governments. We have hosted ETH Riyadh last year, before that, Web3 Riyadh. This year, we have also worked on with a team from the U. S. on Edge of Riyadh, Outer Edge.

And there are a lot of So we are not resisting or blocking technologies. There are lots of investors and VCs in Saudi investing in blockchain technologies today, including 500 Global, including Adverse and, and others and Outliers. So these are VCs coming from outside to Saudi, establishing their offices here.

To look at blockchain technologies and investing in them.

Stephen: Now, Throughput has a fund. I guess most, you know, infrastructure levels have funds to attract developers and other technology participants, partners. What is the Throughput fund and how will you be utilizing that capital?

Yasser: Of course, enhancing technologies, enabling gamers, working in the throughput lab, we want to enable game developers. Working with institutions on supporting the movements from Web 2. 0 gaming solutions to Web 3. 0 and blockchain technologies. And that's mostly more R& D, more work with many R& D areas here in Saudi.

We have been supported by many local institutions on game development and game labs.

Stephen: What do you think the future of Web3 gaming is? And obviously you're playing a huge part in it. But is there something that people aren't talking about or a challenge that might come up? What is the future of the Web3 gaming over the next 5 to 10 years?

Yasser: Based on studies, the gaming industry, the e gaming industry is a 50 billion industry. So it's not small. It's huge. As of today, it's around 10 billion. So there's a growth of 5x in the coming 5 to 10 years. And this allows opportunities to come in. Yes, there will be challenges. There'll be new technologies coming in the future and gaming like any other industry, it adapt and it grow and transform transform.

And we just need to be very close to the latest technologies. Try them out, do a lot of research, develop a lot of technologies, and hopefully we will be one of the leaders in this domain.

Stephen: Now, we can't talk about Saudi Arabia without mentioning Neom. I could give a, you know, a description from the website, but maybe just tell me from someone that resides in Riyadh, what is Neom to you, and what does it mean to, you know, your community when they talk about building this smart city?

Yasser: So Neil first. From perspective, it's a two hours flight from Riyadh. So it's not, so Neom is not Riyadh and Saudi Vision 2030 is not only Neom. So we have lots of programs all around Saudi, but I think Neom have taken the international news. And the reason I think because they are on studies, based on a lot of advices globally and locally, we are allowed to test how communities can be created from scratch.

So if you have that. Vision. And you want to set up a City from scratch ensuring that it is sustainable. It does not consume a lot of, you know, or produce a lot of carbon. It is friendly to provide quality of life. Then you have to think totally different than sitting up a normal city with skyscrapers.

And that's how NIM started and nim and if you look at NIM in details, then they'll. Five, six projects, maker projects, or Gaker projects inside them. So you have the port with you know, Hexagon, you have the mountain and the, you know, the, we are hosting the 2027 Winter Olympics in there with Trujillo.

Then you have the line where a new community is set and so forth. These are just examples. So Neum tried to set and prepare and set the cities and a new concept based on studies, not only from Saad. So we did not come with the idea and say, let's build a line from day one. And everyone says, yeah, let's do it.

No, this comes with studies from all over the world. All over the world, to say, this would be the right way to do it. This is the vision we see a new city build up in the future. And maybe that will be your multiverse. If you want to look at a totally new concept, you can. Teleport to the line in 5 10 years from now and see how it looks like.

But there's a lot of progress in these projects. You can go to their website, you can see the status of these. And I'm not the one that's speaking on behalf of the country or the project, but that's from my opinion. We need, as the same as R& D, we always need to test our boundaries. Not only from a game perspective or technology, but also from a community perspective and design of the entire city.

Stephen: And we know you're not a spokesperson, but you're one of the best people to ask. You have the ESG and the digital transformation. Background, this is kind of like your Superbowl, I'm assuming, of a city built on, you know, the pillars that you stand so firmly on. When is this project expected to be done?

And do you think that, you know, blockchain cryptocurrency would power this specific city? Or are they going to use maybe traditional fiat currency that's been used in Saudi?

Yasser: When it will happen, I don't know. I'm, I'm not into that project. I know that it is progressing and I know that it will be in phases. So, different cities have a different timeline. What I know is is one of the projects that will launch the, the, or will host the Winter Olympics in 20 27 or 2028 even.

I don't remember. But different projects have different timeline. They are within we, we receive or we see the news that it is progressing and as planned, there will be lots of change of. Targets based on opportunities. And we have seen this as a fact after winning the hosting the FIFA World Cup 2034, then you have to shift where should I prioritize?

Should I prioritize building a project there or building a, you know, a stadium here and be prepared for this? So this is like any other projects. We always need to work on privatizations and focus on delivering. I think everything is progressing and that's the good news. If you go to the website, you can see status pictures, videos of the status of these projects.

And that's what amazed us today and get us the energy to work harder.

Stephen: I always check to see if they're going to have any, you know, job openings, consultancy openings outside of Saudi Arabia. Yeah. Not that I'm against moving there, but I'm like, oh man, that would be so cool. I love checking on the status updates just to see what's going on. Where do you think you're going to be able to contribute or be within this city?

Do you think of having an office there from like a throughput lab standpoint? You're thinking about like, You know, it's two hours away from where you reside. So maybe it's like, you know, a second home, like how, maybe it's, you know, you're powering the, the Web3 gaming economy there. How do you see yourself playing a role, whether personally or professionally?

Yasser: On a professional level we, I know that Neom have their own blockchain strategy and they are developing a lot of services. They have international partners all over the world to support them on, on meeting their objectives within the blockchain tech community. On a personal level, yes, I hope I will have my second home there.

It's relaxing. Access to the Red Sea, which is the most beautiful sea around the world. And as a person that I love diving, I wish to have a house nearby so I can just jump into the sea for a couple of hours.

Stephen: Before we go, there's all, you know, as Dubai emerged when it came to lifestyle business, Web3 innovation, I have many friends, you know, moving over there specifically. Because of the zero tax, to be quite frank, and the business opportunities. But, you know, the people that live there are like, Hey, we have to be employed.

If we're not employed, we don't have, you know, the visa runs out. Tell me if someone's listening to this and they're like, Oh man, you know, Saudi sounds amazing. I would love to pick up and, you know, take an adventure there and, you know, find a job with Neom. Tell us some of the things that we should know going into Saudi Arabia, some of the places that they should look to.

Give us, you know, the three minute lowdown of everything you know as a resident of Saudi Arabia to help somebody that's like, you know, really feeling this episode and is like, Hey, I need to change and this sounds like a perfect place to go.

Yasser: So again, Saudi is as big as Western Europe. And from from South to North, you will see the entire four seasons. So, if you are in love with hiking and mountains, then the South of Saudi Arabia has a very nice weather all year long. In the middle of the summer is around 20 degrees. It was you know, a mist of water and it's a beautiful area.

If you like diving, then the north and west north of Saudi, near Neom, Tabuk, and Jeddah, then you'll enjoy the diving there. And if you like history, then Al Ula, Al Ula is the most beautiful historic area. It's more than 3, 000 years old. You see areas that can wow you like the pyramid, but you know, it's so amazing and the people, the food is amazing.

And if you like technology and modernizations, then Riyadh, we're starting this month, the Riyadh season for three months, where everywhere from the region, they come and globally, they come and visit and enjoy. The best entertainment here in, in, in Riyadh, and I think you have seen. A lot of media about boxing, about Formula E, about Formula One.

All these are hosted in Saudi Arabia. So it's, it's cross depends on if you want to go on a camel ride or enjoy as looking at the sky and the history. The thing is in Saudi, it's full of culture. It's amazing food and the people here are very, very hospitable and they love to welcome people from all around the world.

So come in and visit and you'll see by yourself.

Stephen: What's the one meal like, you know, UK has the fish and chips, you know, Italy has the pizza and the pasta. What's like the one meal if someone's coming to Saudi that they have to try.

Yasser: So I think people know Saudi for Kabsa, which is rice and chicken, but But if you are a meat lover, then there is a lot of lamb meat it's called the entire lamb and this is an amazing food for me on a personal level. And there are lots of A lot of plates with rice and with meat.

But if you like vegetable and vegetarian food and falafel, we have the best falafel and best shawarma..

Stephen: Oh man, I love, I love falafels and shawarmas. This is really great insight. How about the job market? Now, you know, you talked about going to San Francisco when you're talking to VCs, as people are coming to Saudi Arabia, you know, what is the opportunities for, you know, companies in Silicon Valley to do work with Saudi Arabia companies, you know, governments, what is the ease there?

I know there's, you know, going into VC land in San Francisco seems a lot easier than in a lot of other jurisdictions. What do you think the lay of the land for somebody who wants a job or somebody that's an entrepreneur and wants to find out about opportunities in Saudi Arabia?

Yasser: So Saudi has program for welcoming entrepreneurs, startups, and large corporates to come to Saudi. And for those entrepreneurs with great ideas, there are programs, there is a program called NTDP, the National Digital Transformation Fund, where there is a relocation fund, there is an MVP lab fund, and there are other funds to support you to come to Saudi, work with local developers and local entrepreneurs, and develop your technology here.

So, in terms of visas, We have seen growth in the number of VCs, global VCs coming to Saudi, and they all focus on FinTech, ai, blockchain, and they want to invest all the way frome and engine investors to, to series A. So the growth of VCs shows innovation, shows trust in the global market on how and where to invest.

And Saudi become one of these hubs today.

Stephen: That's amazing. I love, you know, people talk so much about Dubai, but when I went out to Dubai, I met so many people from Bahrain and other places, including Saudi, that talk so highly about those places that, you know, maybe the media doesn't mention as much as they do Dubai. Now, I definitely know people can follow you on LinkedIn.

Is there any other places? Because you're posting some great content there. Is there any other places you'd like people to follow you?

Yasser: I am a LinkedIn guy. I am not that person on X or Instagram or others. I'm focusing more on LinkedIn and anyone..

Stephen: You are my kind of guy, that's where we dominate here on LinkedIn. So we love most of our listeners know me from LinkedIn. So that's great that they'll get to know you. I know there's a huge time difference. I want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast and really giving us this lay of the land, especially around Saudi Arabia.

I don't think many know that Saudi is leading in many places when it comes to innovation, web three gaming, as well as technology. Thank you so much, Yasser.

Yasser: Thank you, Stephen, for your time and for hosting this show and looking forward to see you again in Saudi.

Stephen: Awesome.

Yasser: Take care. Bye.