Mike Townsend: Thanks for tuning into another episode of Around The Coin. Today's guest is Matt Medved, the CEOand co-founder of nft now. nft now is a premier Web3 digital media platformfor NFT coverage and curation. Under Matt and his leadership, nft now has becomethe most trusted source in NFT media and made history as the first ever digitalmedia publication to curate a major auction house sale with Christie's. Priorto nft now, Matt founded Billboard Dance and scaled the vertical into leadingthe electronic and dance music publication in North America.  

Mike Townsend: We talked about whatMatt is building at nft now for a bit, we really focused on the categoricalunderstanding of what NFTs are. So breaking down the different categories ofmusic, we talked about the history kind of making sense of where things aretoday in context to the history to potentially forecast where things are gonnago impact on everything from poetry to gaming, to. Art curation of art. It's areally massive and slightly overwhelming space in the type of opportunitiesthat the NFT technology unlocks. So Matt is super excited about working on whathe's working on. We've discussed how even the media publication of nft nowcould morph into a Web3 platform in and of itself.

Mike Townsend: He named a fewfantastic books at the end and AI artists, which something I'm definitely gonnacheck out.  

Mike Townsend: Hope you enjoy thisconversation. Here is Matt Medved.

Mike Townsend: All right, Matt. I'mexcited to chat with you. Thanks for hopping on the podcast today.  

Matt Medved: Yeah, man. Thanks forhaving me. I'm excited to chat as well.  

Mike Townsend: So, so let me just.You know, I I'd love for you to fill in the gaps here, but I know yourbackground really consists a lot of working in the media space writing when youwere in Berlin, Germany, and you're writing about the DJ scene there, it seemslike you've really been captured your entire life by creative outlets music,art, and what's gonna be the next big thing that influences society.

Mike Townsend: How, how do youdescribe what if you view the, the co. Motivation on what pushes you forward?Where is it around social direction? Like figuring out where we're going or howdo you sort of articulate what motivates you?

Matt Medved: Yeah, that, that's agreat question. I'll give a little bit of background. That'll help kind ofexplain that as well.

Matt Medved: Yeah, you know, I I'vealways been like enamored with. Art music, culture, music specifically drivenhas driven me forward for a lot of my career. I I founded Billboard Dance.Billboard's Dance, electronic music brand back in 2015. Ran SPIN magazine aseditor in chief after that. And what's interesting was I actually starteddabbling in crypto back in 2013.

Matt Medved: I bought my firstBitcoin at the exact top of that market. Like watched it crash, but just heldonto it because I believed in the in, in the technology, it was actually duringthe billboard years, 2016 to 18 where I really started to get back into crypto,cuz so many of my friends who were DJs guys like Lao, R C who have been likereally kind of pioneers in the space were, were really involved in it.

Matt Medved: And Found that I waslike the only person at billboard who owned crypto or understood it at all,started doing a lot of coverage around that. And then you know, did a bunch ofstuff with, with RAC advice for blouse music and blockchain festival. At theend of the day, we're always trying to figure out how does this technologyempower creators because empowering creators and really like uplifting artistryis something that.

Matt Medved: Really driven meforward for my career. I always would say that even like during my immediatedays I'm a curator, not a reporter, you know, like I was always looking for thenext big thing, not like trying to break a story or, or be nosy in anyone'sbusiness. And so, you know, what was interesting was always believed in thetechnology with, with blockchain, but it wasn't really until NFTs that NFTswere kinda like that missing puzzle piece for me where I felt reallycomfortable kind of jumping.

Matt Medved: Like whole headlonginto Web3 full time and really taking that plunge because it was the technologyI believed in for a long time, finally disrupting fields. I'm actuallypassionate about like music and art and culture and in a way that actually hasthe potential to empower creators. So for me, it was just like every light bulbgoing off in my head.

Matt Medved: But yeah, it all comesfrom a place of empowerment and that's why that's one of like our mostimportant values at nft now.  

Mike Townsend: Hmm. And what if youbreak NFTs down non fungible tokens. What aspect. Do you think is most mostcompelling when it first clicked for you and you said light bulbs went off.

Matt Medved: It's a great question.A, the potential for digital ownership. I think, the fact that you can now, forexample, as a digital artist, build a collector base around your work. And nothave to rely on client work and, and the like being able to really kind of havea, have a full see at the table when it comes to the art world.

Matt Medved: When I was talking toBlau was a conversation with Blau, he was the one who got me into NFT. When heexplained to me how, as an artist, for example an NFT can create thisincredible bond between an artist and their fan. What he said to me, what Ithought I think is really interesting is like, look like, you know, if I have ashow in Mexico city and I, I know I have fans there Spotify tells me that I getthis many thousands of streams every month or whatever, but I can't reach.

Matt Medved: Spotify has that data.I don't have that data. And that's the case for so many of these centralizedplatforms. Right. And so, but what he could do is he could always take asnapshot of people who hold his NFT and immediately airdrop them something. Hecan reward them, he can reach them. He knows who they are, you know, to acertain degree.

Matt Medved: And so it, it allowshim as an artist to be empowered outside the ads and the algorithms that, thatget in the way in this, in sort of the web two model. And. For me, what itreally made sense for what it all kind of clicked is thinking about how NFTscan actually kind of make good on the original promise of the internet.

Matt Medved: The whole idea of 1000true fans like Kevin Kelly, you know, set out, which is that as a creator, Youknow, in theory, you, you actually don't need millions of fans to have asuccessful career. As a creative, all you need are a thousand true fans who aregonna pick up what you put down, support you on everything.

Matt Medved: Show up to the show,buy the ticket, take the ride, you know, buy the merch, et cetera. The issue isthat many creators find themselves in this predicament where you know, theyhave to pay centralized platforms like Instagram, meta, Facebook, et cetera, toeven reach a fraction of their organic follow.

Matt Medved: And so they, theyactually can't, that's why you see so many artists. That's why we say in the musicbusiness, for example there's, there's no middle class. There's either the, thepeople who are, you know, the Drakes and the Justin BS and then the strugglingartists. And I think NFTs allow for a more equitable and sustainable model forcreatives to directly monetize with their communities.

Matt Medved: It's like, instead ofin web two building. You know, on a platform as a means to the end, toindirectly monetize it as a middleman for brands, you can now build communityas an end in itself and then allow, and then monetize directly with thatcommunity by sharing in the value that you create. So I think NFTs while theyoften get a lot of focus, there's a lot of focus on them in the media and allthat as these, you know, speculative assets and the like, and certainly theyare to some degree that it's a new creative asset class and they're, it's stillin price discovery.

Matt Medved: But I actually thinkthat there's so much like really interesting utility that lies beneath thesurface that a lot of people don't don't know about and how, how NFTs canactually really like fundamentally empower creators and redefine how creatorsin their communities create and share value.

Mike Townsend: If you, if you sort ofthink about music and creative distribution as this oscillating, almost like abreath, like it, it's it centralizes and decentralize it's like prior to maybe1940, there was, you know, your, the, the music you listened to was probablythe local musician in town.

Mike Townsend: You know, they playedat the local bar, you went to the local bar. And so there was a, there was alocal, maximum of exposure they could get, like at most they could. 50,000people in a night, and it's only, it's only gonna be played that night. It'snever recorded. So like distribution is inherently limited from the technology.

Mike Townsend: Then, then theincentives is, is to, is to make that more distributed, more distributed. Soradio comes on, recording devices happen cheap, inexpensive discs, right? Comeout like record players and then CDs and MP3s. And, and that goes digitalstored in the cloud. We go from iTunes pay per. To pay per month for all thesongs.

Mike Townsend: So Spotify is the,like the hyper consolidated. Treasure, chest, right? Database of songs. Andyou, you, instead of going to the record label and going to the record store,you go to strange of Spotify. So I almost see it as like, it was very, verydecentralized in way before technology. Right? All the musicians playedwherever they locally were.

Mike Townsend: And now it's hypercentral centralized, which is why, like what you say, there's no middle class.It's like, if you're on the top of the list, there, that's the only stage intown, you know, Spotify. I dunno, who's number two, Amazon music. You can nameon a handful, right? Where people like 95% of people get their, get their musicfrom like five sources or something like that.

Mike Townsend: Totally. And then doyou, do you see that as the end state of consolidation or centralization wherethrough this technology NFTs, it allows for like, is this how you sort ofmental model it out? Like it's gonna become more decentralized. Artists havetheir own platform, like instead of three or four major music platforms,there's like every artist has their own platform.

Mike Townsend: So you. Am I thinkingabout this in the right way. Tell me like, how you think about filtration of,of musicians.  

Matt Medved: For sure. I thinkthere's that element for sure, in the music space. And I think we're still veryearly when it comes to Web3 and music. Right now, for example, like I don't, Iwouldn't say like NFTs, the Web3 have all the answers for music.

Matt Medved: They haven't been asall been built yet. You know what. So I always tell, like my friends in themusic industry, I'm like, Hey, like it's, it's always an, and it's never an orit's like, you should still release your right now. You should still releaseyour singles on, on the streaming services. And you should still go throughthe, you know, the you know, some of that market.

Matt Medved: Cause you gotta reachthe masses. We have to remember mm-hmm SDS are still very nascent web. Three'sstill very nice. It's still got a very, very small market penetration comparedto the, the masses at large. What you can also do now is create a new, a newway to reward engaged and build with your, your most highly engaged fans, yoursuper fans.

Matt Medved: You know what I mean?So it's interesting. For me, you know my dad is a brain doctor has nothing todo with, with music, but he's a huge music fan and he, and he's probably thebiggest Beatles fan I've ever met. And I grew up and he collect. Rare beetlesmemorabilia. And so I've always understood this idea of collectability aroundmusic from a very early age.

Matt Medved: So it's why it likereally clicked for me in the music context. And so what's interesting is like,I often, like will, will like make an analogy to a music NFT as the signedvinyl. That also doubles as like your backstage pass and fan club membershipand all that. You know what I mean? It's like, it doesn't necessarily mean thatyou're gonna always go to the NFT to listen to the song.

Matt Medved: Like anyone can golisten to Abby road. Right. But not everyone has a signed version of Abby road.And what's, what's interesting is that that has value when it comes to fandomand the interesting utilities of being able to prove, Hey, I'm a member of thisclub. That's a lot of interesting artists are doing, are bringing in these,like, you know, rewarding their most, their most engaged fans, like what's,Steve's doing with Aoki verse and the like, and it's like access to shows andthese backstage and.

Matt Medved: You know, meat andgreets and like these exclusive, exclusive merch and, and there's other peopledoing really utility, like interesting spins on it. Tyco's got a really coolproject on there. So what's interesting is right now it's like, you kind ofhave, like, I like you have to sort of balance both worlds.

Matt Medved: But one, one thing Ithink is amazing is it's giving artists more leverage over centralized systems.So for example, in the music context, You know, the, the only route to reallymake it back in the day used to be sign away 80 plus percent of your rights toyour music and your royalties and, and your masters to a major label inexchange for an advance so that you could live as a musician and have enough torecord an album and all that.

Matt Medved: And then like have torecoup that. And there's just a very skewed system. Now, as an artist, you cando a crowd. Via crypto via NFTs and essentially raise what you still prettymuch around the, as what you would get from like a major label advance. We'veseen a lot of artists do this, but give away a fraction of your ownershipcompared to what you would give away.

Matt Medved: And instead of givingyour ownership to these major labels that don't necessarily have your bestinterests at heart, they have their bottom line. First and foremost, you'reactually giving your ownership to your. And I there's something reallybeautiful about that. So I, I do think that, that we are going to seeconsiderable decentralization in the music space.

Matt Medved: It's gonna be a longprocess. And I still think that. The fully decentralized route, won't be forevery artist, right? There's a, there's gonna have this. If you're, if you'rea, an artist that has a huge fan base, there's a certain level of scale you'regonna need in terms of distribution, in terms of being able to reach.

Matt Medved: And, and thistechnology is still. Quite early when it comes to market penetration on thatscale. But I do think that will be the trend as we go forward. Mm-hmm. Mm.  

Mike Townsend: And what tools nowcome stand out to you as if you're an artist now, like regardless of what scaleyou're at are there just kind of go-to tools now to.

Mike Townsend: Create these thingslike aokiverse or, or are these still like independent projects that are beingbuilt out by the artists themselves? Like, are there things that people areusing that are...

Matt Medved: Yeah. It's a reallygood question. It's a bit of both. So some interesting platforms that come tomind Royal, which which is Blas platform, which allows people fans toessentially buy music NFTs essentially to in invest in their favorite artistsand actually share.

Matt Medved: In a percentage oflike of streaming royalties. So in theory, as a fan, you could buy into anartist you believed, and then if they blow up and you could actually seefinancial upside from that then there's another platform called sound XYZ whichhas done, has had. Success in, in the music NFT space also in terms of buildingwhat is a nascent, but actually thriving secondary market for music NFTs, whichmany people doubted could be done.

Matt Medved: But again, these arealso, these are curated platforms, so it's not like they're open to the publicright now. It's like, you know, they're, they're letting they're onboardingartists. They're bringing them in. But what what's interesting is, you know,there are, there are also, you know, open platforms, like, you know, you couldmin a music NFT on open sea.

Matt Medved: You could mint an NFmusic NFT on wearable. You could mint one on Zora and I've seen people do itand, and then create you know, sort of create like your own kind of dynamicsaround it. There's a really interesting artist were big believers in namedLata. Who has actually found a lot of success selling her music videos on Zoraand, you know, Zora's an open platform and but they're just, they're, they'rehighly, highly conceptual, beautifully shot.

Matt Medved: It's like owning up awork of art, you know? And so people are treating them like art, like who ownswho's the collector who owns this. And again, everyone can enjoy. But oneperson owns it. And and that's kind of the, what's been really interesting tosee and what, what, what it gets down to is music is can be a bit, a bit of anamorphous area because I don't think it's as easily experienced and as quicklyexperienced as for example, visual art.

Matt Medved: You know, we have seenobviously in the NFT space digital art and digital collectible. Really take offas use cases to drive market volume and awareness and, and in terms of themainstream. And I think part of that is because it's so easy to wrap your headaround, like as a, at a, you know, at a, at a glance, we understand in theoryas a society, the value of art, right.

Matt Medved: We understand like,like collecting. Rare or by, by artists who have career trajectories and, youknow, the, the value proposition there as a collector right now, it's justdigital. Now, all of a sudden, all these digital artists can, can enjoy thatand, and can build collector bases. Say it with digital collectibles.

Matt Medved: I always liken it tolike, it's the digital version of like the baseball card, like the rarebaseball card, right? Like we as a society have, have have accepted that rarebaseball cards have. Long before you and I have even been born, you know, like,like the, you know, the 1950 rookie Mickey mantle card that sold for, I thinkit, it just sold for what, like 13 million or the like wow.

Matt Medved: Really? You know that.Yeah, I think so. Like, and, and I know one sold for like 5.2 million a coupleyears back, but, but it costs less than fit like 5 cents to make. But again,yeah, it's not about, it's not about that piece of card stock and what it coststo make. It's about what it represents. It's the rarity, it's the scarcity,it's the history, it's the cultural relevant.

Matt Medved: It's the fandom andNFTs has collectibles are just the digital versions of that, you know? And solike, it, it, I think those use cases have been easier for the masses tounderstand music is still getting there. Music is still a work in progress, I'dsay, but there's definitely some encouraging side to some part of this.

Mike Townsend: Do you see anypotential underappreciated, negative externalities? Like one that comes to mindpossibly is how someone could. Sell a song. It min a song on multiple platformsor, you know, in the physical world, the fact that it's physical means that, youknow, it's it's, it is what it is. Whereas in the digital world, obviouslythere can be multiple items, an NFT, certainly can't be the actual token itselfis secured through cryptography, but you could create multiple NFTs on multipleplatforms.

Mike Townsend: Is that a real. Causefor confusion in the market or is there, is, does that make sense first of all?And is that something that it does marketplace?

Matt Medved: It does make senseaware of. It does make sense. I think at the end of the day, like, you know,there are always gonna be good and bad actors in every, in every ecosystem inevery market.

Matt Medved: And part of the, youknow, to have a sustainable career, a successful career in, you know,traditional music or even ended in Web3 music, there has to be a level of trustbetween artists and, and collector and, and fan. Right. And so. Yeah. Intheory, as a musician, you could like try to pull a fast one and min a songmultiple times, but it's all transparent on the blockchain.

Matt Medved: People would figure itout pretty quickly and it would probably sink your chances of having any sortof viable career going forward from that. So I don't think that for exampleit's really a concern in terms of like artists doing that. And, and I, I dothink that there is a, a large gray area around like the copyright side andenforceability there.

Matt Medved: I do think thatplatforms are, are kind of stepping up to the plate there increasingly. But Ialso think that, you know, one of the biggest things that, that we think, andone of, I think, I think the biggest issues around around, you know, the NFTspace. Lack of education helping people get onboarded and understand like howto spot scams, how to spot like fake things.

Matt Medved: Because like, if you,if you know, right now, it's like, if you go on a platform like open sea andyou're looking for a project, you're probably you type in, you're probablygonna find a bunch of other copycat knockoffs, not so much in the music space,but more in the collectible space where there's market volume.

Matt Medved: And there's a lot.People who are looking to make quick purchases and may not like may not bedoing their due diligence. You know, there's obviously a ton of scams onTwitter. You know, like people masquerading as li as legitimate projects,trying to get people to connect their, their meta mask and, you know,compromising their assets.

Matt Medved: And the, the issue islike, it, it, you know, I, I come. I come from a time in the crypto spacecoming in, in 2013 at Bitcoin, where I was like, there's like a healthyparanoia. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm, , you know, the whole, like not mykeys, not my coins. Like, like I like, you know, like I, you know, like, thankGod I, like, I took myself off Mount Gox as soon as I, like, as soon as I usedit, you know what I mean?

Matt Medved: And I like, and I hadit in my, in my, like in my like externals, like a software wallet then, like,I didn't trust it on like any platform. I, you know, you couldn't even trustthe platforms back then. It was like truly the wild west. The NFT space coulduse like a bit of a dose of that healthy Panera. You know what I mean?

Matt Medved: Mm-hmm, like, becauseyou have so many, you have so many newcomers to the space who are not only newto NFTs, but they're new to crypto and they're not, and they're not. Andthey're new to that whole, like some of the things that we, as, as people whohave been in crypto for a bit somewhat take for granted, You don't just like signup your meta mass to, to any random site.

Matt Medved: You don't, you don'tsign transactions unless you really know what they are like, you know, youdon't trust these links, things that seem very obvious to us. Such as likedon't buy that NFT until you verify that it's the legitimate collection. Thatit's the one that. That the artist or the, or the creator or the project islinking to from their official, you know, sites, all that stuff.

Matt Medved: Like things that makesense to us. It's really easy for these newcomers, not to know. And it's whywe've seen so many kind of like high profile hackings and, and scams and thelike, because there's, there's a big education gap that, that needs to beclosed. So I know it's a long, little bit of a long and wide big answer to yourquestion, but I do think.

Matt Medved: It's it's, it's lessabout I'm, I'm more worried less about like the people trying to, to do that asI am people trying to prey upon like newcomers to the space who, who don't knowany other. Yeah,  

Mike Townsend: yeah. Just for justgeneral chaos from the early yeah. Early technology, which is, you know, to beexpected.

Mike Townsend: That's yeah, it makesa lot of sense. And how do you break down the market of NFTs? You havecollectibles, you have music. What are the big categories that exist today andwhat are kind of what you see as maybe other categories coming down thepipeline?  

Matt Medved: I love this question.It's a great one. One thing I wanna start out with is mainstream awareness ofNFTs is, is a really funny thing because NFTs are a medium that are beingtreated like a category, right?

Matt Medved: Like a lot of people,there are a lot of people out there. just like when they hear NFT, all theythink about is board ape and or apes and maybe people and the like, like that.And what's interesting is those are just, those are just two categories of twointeresting use cases. And I think there are so many use cases.

Matt Medved: So in terms of whathas driven market volume and awareness and adoption, all that, obviously like.Digital art. And digital collectibles have been huge, right? Like NBA top shotwas a, was a, was a big driver of mainstream awareness and adoption. When, whenpeople took off, you know, that that really was a game changer for the digitalart world.

Matt Medved: The success ofcommunity based. To PFP projects like Bored Ape Yacht Club, which was, youknow, inspired by Crypto Punks, which is like the OG OG one. Those collectiblesobviously spawned a lot of imitators and, and, and admirers and like a secondgeneration. So, so those are very proven. I think those use cases have likeproven value to the market.

Matt Medved: And also in, in termsof like, like burgeoning awareness music is a, is a really interesting one.Photography is an area that we're seeing a lot of, of new market volume. Peopleare, you know, but when I joined the space there were barely any photographerson super rare and, and practically none on nifty gateway.

Matt Medved: Now there are tons ofphotographers and there's an amazing like photography community. It's reallykind of. Changing the creative economy over there as photographers can go from,go like a, a services industry to like a proper. Goods industry where they canbe collected similar to what happened with like digital art.

Matt Medved: Then, you know, gamingis another one that, that we have seen drive. We've seen early use cases for itdrive considerable market volume, but also encounter some significant problems.You know, AXI, infinity drove. Insane amounts of market volume last year. Butalso, and, you know, and kind of like really, really was the poster child ofthe play to earn gaming concept.

Matt Medved: But obviously for, fora number of different reasons you know, they they've, they've, they've hitsome, some speed bumps and some harder times, you know, they, there was thatexploit on Ronan, which was tough. And it's like, you know, I do think that. Insome ways they were like ahead of their time. And it's gonna be reallyinteresting to see where the blockchain gaming space goes.

Matt Medved: But I think it isabsolutely a massive sleeping giant. Like you look at the look at the market,like cap of the traditional gaming industry. And it's it's it's next level. Andso like that is all going to come to Web3, eventually like ownership. They maynot call it NFT. They may call it skins. They may call it land. They may callit items, you know, things like that. But digital ownership is going nowheregaming, I think is actually going to be one of the forces that helps drive thenext NFT bull run. So I'm very, very bullish on gaming. And then I, I thinkthere's some other really interesting use cases that don't get as muchattention, but I think our, our bear mentioning I'm a big believer in literaryNFT..

Matt Medved: Like, I think thatit's absolutely gonna change the game for poets. Like poets are gonna be ableto have collectors actually it's already happening on a small scale. There arealready poets who are, who are finding success with like collector bases andthe like similar idea where it's like, rather than just like being paid penniesto like in pub, like include this in a, in a literary journal or like,Self-publish a book or whatever, like, you know, they can actually build, theycan actually build a real collector base with ownership of, of it.

Matt Medved: And I think poetry isuniquely suited for that because it's similar to art. It can evoke an emotionalresponse very quickly, you know, and like, you know, it's, it's not like youhave to read a full book to, to get it. It's like a, it it'll it's right there.So literary is gonna be really interesting. I think also crowdfunding literaryprojects.

Matt Medved: Being able to providea decentralized alternative to the publishing houses TV film. There's anamazing artist named Julie Pacino, a filmmaker who crowdfunded her, her film byselling photo NFTs. And I think there's really interesting opportunities thereto go outside the traditional like studio models.

Matt Medved: And then there's gonnabe a bunch of like, you know, less, less sexy, but like still the lessimportant like U like utility based NFT cases, sort of like. Like the deed toyour house or to your car, or, you know, like the or like government documentsand even healthcare records, like, and then you get into like, so bound tokens,the SPTs, which are the ones that you, you can't sell or transfer.

Matt Medved: They're like, you knowthey're, they're you know, kind of permanently attached to a wallet, which couldbe really interesting around these records that, you know, we don't want to,like, you know, we don't really want anyone selling. Their their college degreeon the open market. Right. You know, like things like that, that shouldn't betransferable, but it's just, it's just really interesting.

Matt Medved: I think at the, at theend of the day, like the way I always try and break it down for people is. weare all part of the last generations to grow up without digital ownership fromday one. And so like the future generations to come are gonna grow are gonnagrow up, owning things digitally and physically, they're not gonna question it.

Matt Medved: They're not gonna havethe same hangups as we do. Like how do I hang it on my wall? Like right. Clicksave. Like none of that's gonna really be in their calculus. They're gonna ownthings, digitally own things physically. And they're gonna appreciate them fortheir own unique strengths and appeals. So like this genie is not going backinside the bottle.

Matt Medved: We're already seeingthis with gen Z who. All over Fortnite and Roblox and like owning skins andthings like that. They're just not NFTs they're in centralized servers, butlike the desire to own things digitally is there. So like it's just a, it just,it just makes too much sense. So, you know, I, I think there's gonna be, it'sreally gonna be really incredible to see as, as more use cases emerge.

Matt Medved: And you know, I, Ithink we've only just grasped the surface.

Mike Townsend: It's an interestingway to frame it. Like we're the last generation to have a non-digital nativeownership. Which, yeah, because it does make a lot of sense that people who areborn in this space born in this time would just you know, take what exist and runwith it forward.

Mike Townsend: And, and kind of the,the situation we're in now with NFTs crypto metaverse VR AR AI stuff kind ofall, I would say in like early, early innings, early to like mid innings, maybecrypto and Bitcoin, like the financial instruments are probably the mostmature, just given that that's where it started.

Mike Townsend: Do you see a, a cleartrajectory on, on pattern matching? Like you have different categories of NFTsthat you mentioned, right. Music and gaming and so on and so forth. And thenyou have the mechanisms through which those can be monetized. So you have. Theother side of that, which is you have the technology distribution ownership,and then you have the financing.

Mike Townsend: So it could becrowdfunded mm-hmm you could like pay per per view. You can have some timebased, you know, you could look at an art piece of art for, I don't know, youcould buy time on it. I I'm sure there's many different ways to like remix, howpeople pay for these things. Then you have. the projects themselves, which arejust sometimes like category defining people, being one of them.

Mike Townsend: And I think peopleconfuse sometimes the project for the representative category and early stagethings like poetry. Is it clear how they come together? I probably my guesstell me if you disagree, but it seems like we. You know, Oculus, Oculus two, Iwould imagine apple has to roll out like their version of this.

Mike Townsend: Like clearly the phoneis, is, is not gonna be the, the end all be all for hardware interfaces fortechnology. Like it, it seems like this would be a better conversation if wecould just throw in some glasses and, and actually be almost indistinguishablefrom, from the physical world. Totally clearly NFT fits square into that.

Mike Townsend: Right? If you're, ifthe more immersed you are into a digital world, The more, the more useful a NFTrepresentative ownership of a piece of art or something is to you because, youknow, you could actually put it on your wall. When you look at the wall, maybeyour wall is actually physically empty, but when you look, you have this nicepainting that somebody made, do you see like Combinations of these thingsinterfacing in, in non-obvious ways.

Mike Townsend: AI, I was playingaround this past weekend with the mid journey data yeah. And it's like,  

Matt Medved: I'm playing aroundtoo, so much fun.  

Mike Townsend: It's like, you justit's it's is mind blowing. I mean, once you see that, you're like, okay, well,if I type in anything, you know, gaffe dancing on the moon with fire explodingin the background, you could just describe.

Mike Townsend: As scene, you know, Iwalk into a room. Yeah. There's a woman sitting on the counter. There's, youknow, a waterfall over here and then you can describe a continued scene in amovie. So the cost of like movie production is effectively, nothing justpeople's time, just like software drops to virtually nothing.

Mike Townsend: And now, now you havethis like world where anyone could create different scenes and movies and, andenactments. Do you see areas where if you kind of play this thought experimentout that they're like, oh, we're, we're about to. I don't know, whole new, likeHollywood's gonna get completely flipped on its head or because it seems theimplications of this affect everything in a major way.

Mike Townsend: Yeah. The NFT stuff,to be honest with you, I'm like, okay, it's early, it's early stuff. It's likecool to have a board a, you know, it feels like it's gonna be a part of historysomeday. Maybe today. It's a lot about pricing and making money. And, but it'slike when you're immersed in it, I don't know.

Matt Medved: Oh yeah, I've got alot. I got a lot there. One thing I wanna say on the nft now podcast, weactually had Claire silver on and she is an amazing AI artist and she totallychanged the way I think about AI. She described it as a camera for yourimagination and and it's like, she kind of likened it to the invention of thecamera where like, when the camera was invented, a lot of people thought.

Matt Medved: Is this the end forpainters and like traditional portraits. And obviously like it wasn't, it'sjust like, it's always an and right. And and, and it just, it just changed likethe nature of it. And, and she kind of talked about like the idea of likecuration as its own art form, because, you know, you can give any, you can giveeveryone, you know, like with these like sophisticated IO tools, like, like midjourney and D.

Matt Medved: Like, you know, eventhough you can create something from thin air with an idea that doesn't, thatdoesn't mean that you can always create like what the, what the people who arelike most skilled with it can. Right. And like, it's going to be reallyinteresting because there's gonna be like, like technique is not gonna be likea and skill isn't going to be necessarily be like, Like hold people back from,from being able to create, which is gonna have, I think, very positiveimplications and also potential negative implications as well.

Matt Medved: I think in that, inthat world building context, like you're spot on in the sense that like, Ithink NFTs are gonna make a lot more sense to people once, especially like,like, especially in some of these more visual manifestations of it once we are,you know, a bit further along in, in metaverse like understanding and adoption.

Matt Medved: Because most peoplearen't there yet. You know, like I only just got my first VR headset, like inthe past month or two, and I've been in this for a bit. Mm-hmm , you know whatI mean? Mm-hmm it's so if I'm not even there, like, you know, like a lot ofpeople aren't and so, and I do think, like, it's really interesting when I talkto collectors and nutritional art world, and they're often like, oh, but like,where am I gonna hang on my wall?

Matt Medved: And I'm like, well,like, do you spend more time looking at your walls or your screens? And he waslike, well, I suppose like I'm on my phone this many hours. And I'm like, well,think about it this way. It's like, just like you talked about how in the prelike internet, era musicians, like their reach into decent centralized manner,their reach was like limited to like who they could play for at like theirlocal shows.

Matt Medved: Like similarly, I'mlike, yo look like, you know, you, you have a nice home. You probably invitemaybe a hundred guests a year to, to see it at, at most, probably less in the,in the past few years, the COVID and like, I'm like, so how many people actuallyreally get to see the art that you collect? I was like, you have that up in ametaverse gallery.

Matt Medved: I was like, I built alittle metaverse gallery for fun. The other day I tweeted it out. One tweet, itgot like, I had like almost 2000 people visited it. Like, you know what I mean?Like the potential to actually share. What you like your, what you'repassionate about and what you own your collection.

Matt Medved: Things like that witha much wider audience is, is like inevitable and, and really obvious to me aand I think it will become increasingly obvious as people use these platformsmore, for sure. Like the, the current, like, experience of NFTs, like.Cumbersome wallets, like you know, like, like looking at them in this, like onthese like web two, like old school devices, like it's definitely not optimal.

Matt Medved: And I, and I think,like you said, like, in some ways I often say like the NFTs being like creatednow, they're like the cave drawings of the metaverse, you know, it's like,we're that early, right? And, and, and like, as, as the, as this progresses, thingsare gonna get a lot better. They're gonna get a lot more sophisticated.

Matt Medved: They're gonna get, youknow, like it, it, it's going to, it's going to continue to, to grow. And, andit's actually amazing to think we've even seen the level of like, You know, of,of attention and, and conversation and, and discourse around it consideringlike it's still such a, it was even at its peak, it was still such a smallpercentage of, of market penetration.

Matt Medved: When you think aboutit overall compared to. Crypto or compared to the internet, like we have somuch, so we have such a long way to go. And so, you know, while I do think thatthis will make more sense to people, once that's the case. And I also think itwill make more sense to people once, like the technology, isn't the focus andit's in the backdrop, you know, like, I, I think that like NBA top shot, Ialways said, like, that was a bit of, I always considered it a bit of like aglimpse into the future of NFTs because it was a very.

Matt Medved: You know, for all the,the pros and cons of platform and the ups and downs, but like, you know, it wasa very smooth onboarding process. You didn't need to create a crypto wallet. Idon't even think the word NFT or crypto or, or any of that appeared on it. Itwas this, it was digital collectibles that also just, they happened to be NFTs,you know?

Matt Medved: And so I think that,like what we've often seen with technology in general is that, you know, realadoption. Once the technology kind of goes to the back to the backdrop and thevalue proposition and, and the understanding of, of how this can actuallyreally enable and empower and, and, and shock and, you know, surprise anddelight as the marketers like to say you know, the, the consumers comesforward.

Matt Medved: Like, you know, it,people weren't excited about MP3s, but then when the iPod came and Steve jobswas like a hundred, a hundred songs in your pocket, it clicked and, and likeNFTs haven't had that moment yet, but they will.  

Mike Townsend: Hmm, and that momentwill be what exactly?  

Matt Medved: That's a greatquestion. . Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. I, I, Ihonestly, I can't, I can't say I can't predict the future exactly there. I, Ido think that in order to get there, it's going to need to we're we're gonnahave to make significant strides on, on usability UX, all that. I do thinkthat, for example, and it's good at that moment, maybe different in different,in different categories.

Matt Medved: I think that momenthas already happened for the, the art world, right? Like the digital art, likedigital artists have had that moment. They're like, Instead of being paidpeanuts to like use my artistic skills to, to fulfill someone else's creativevision as client work, I can instead. Be like create a career, a successfulcareer based on my own creative vision and build a collector base and sell thisfor more money than I ever thought would be possible as an artist.

Matt Medved: In many cases likethat, that, that that's clicked people was that moment for the art world. Youknow what I mean? Like that genie's not going back inside the bottle. I thinkthat moment will come for the gaming world when they understand that for solong, they've been spending their time and attention.

Matt Medved: And in many cases,real. Like in these centralized, like, like closed server ecosystems and it'slike, they can't, they can't really sell that properly on the open market. Theydon't have that. Composability, there's not that interoperability. Like Ialways think about, I was a gamer as a kid. Like I used to play Diablo too.

Matt Medved: I spent endless hours,like building, like, like training these level 99 Neckers, like where where'sthat? You know, it's on some abandoned blizzard server. That's like not beingserved anymore. Like, imagine if I could have sold that at the open market, duringits peak, like all of that, like it's like the value proposition is obvious.

Matt Medved: When you think aboutit there it's like, why would you choose to be like, in this like closedecosystem where you can't, you know, like really, really see the value of, ofyour, of your efforts. And so, like, I think the it's a really good question.I, I do think that that moment is going to come for different industries anddifferent categories at different times and different.

Mike Townsend: Yeah. Yeah. It always,the gaming gaming argument always seemed less the, the, the least convincing tome, because when I talk to people in the space, I talk to people on both sides.Some people are like all in, on, you know, play to earn NFC gaming. Some peopleare like a lot of skeptics right now. This smart skeptics too.

Mike Townsend: I talk to who arelike, well, to build a game is to invest many millions of dollars into thisecosystem and designing it. And the, the, the. Assets that are in the game, thesores and those skins and everything are specific to that game. So it wouldn'tmake a lot of sense to move from one from Fortnite to world of Warcraft orsomething like the, it, it has to integrate with the design of the game itself.

Mike Townsend: Now there's certainlyan argument to say that there's a greater. Economies of scale for tradingoutside on a third party marketplace. Yeah, for sure. You could also have that,you know, that old level, whatever you know, accomplishment profile that yougot as a kid that could be, I don't see why that couldn't be traded within thegame itself to other people who were in there.

Mike Townsend: And I don't knowenough about gaming to say if they're currently doing that, but it seems likethat would be the low hanging fruit.

Matt Medved: Yeah. And, and, and Ithink, look, I think there's some merit to those arguments, but I think theyalso come from like, what is the sort of like web two mentality of like gaming,which is like everyone in their own silos kind of building their own thing.

Matt Medved: Like why, why would wehave crossover like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whereas like, what we're alreadyseeing is like this incredible collaboration in the Web3 space where like, youknow, even looking at like other side, which you know, is, is a concept rightnow, it's under developments, the board apes you know, metaverse, and there'llbe a gaming element to it.

Matt Medved: It's like when theylaunched it, they also included like cool cats and world of women. And like allthese projects that they don't, they don't own, you know what I mean? Mm-hmmthat, but there's gonna be interoperability there because they see the value ofbeing able to bring, you know, their communities in and, and, and have thatinclusion because at the end of the day, I think, I think what we're gonna seeis in order to be successful, like as a metaverse in, in this like new era,like even you have the coolest, you have the coolest virtual world ever, but ifnobody's there, it doesn't have value.

Matt Medved: Right? Yeah. You know,and so like, you know, I, I think that as we start to move from thesecentralized, like. Like siloed experiences to a, to an area where there's gonnabe these, these like more massive like interoperable worlds. There's, it's actuallygoing to be like, there will actually, that'll have to be a value propositionthat's taken into, into consideration when these games are being developed.

Matt Medved: And that doesn't meanthat every game is going to be made for that. So I, I don't think that likenecessarily, like every game is gonna have to be there for the open metaverseand all that, but as that continues to. As I continues to develop and gamersstart to have different expectations around, around where their, the value in their,of their efforts lies and, and, and where that can go and how it can betransferred and, and all that.

Matt Medved: I think we're going tosee increasing. An increasing trend in that direction. It's gonna take timethough, because just like you said, and just like those gamers said it, itcosts, it takes years and, and millions to build a triple a game. That's why,like, you know it's, you know, a lot of the, like the games that are going toreally push, like redefine the space and really, I think help consider like,draw, like kind of drive the next bull run.

Matt Medved: I think a lot, most ofthem haven't been released yet. Some of them are under development right nowbecause it takes. To do that. And again, I, I also think like it, this, thisit's, it's not gonna happen overnight, you know?  

Mike Townsend: Yeah, gaming seemslike the heaviest lift of all. Yeah. Right. I mean, you're creating, there's alot of potential, a lot of pot you're creating new worlds that have like, justthe amount of work that goes into it.

Mike Townsend: It's, it's literallycreating a whole metaverse virtual experience. Yeah. In every one of 'em, whichis you know, it's a lot harder to do than making some one piece of digital artand releasing it on platform.  

Matt Medved: Totally. And I thinkwhat we're gonna see is like, I think we're gonna see I think like we're gonnaget away from the climate where like everyone thinks they can like build theirown metaverse cuz it is such a, like, I think we're gonna, we're gonna see somewinners, like a few, like a few big winners and we're gonna see our like moreniche ones.

Matt Medved: I think what'sinteresting about thinking about the metaverse is like. You know, just like yousaid, like, yo, I like, for me growing up, I grew up in Rochester, New York inthe pre-internet era. I love music. I love punk, me, punk metal, punk bands,and rock and like metal and shit. And so like I had to find friends who werelike in my geographical proximity, who like shared the same interest as me.

Matt Medved: And then the internetmade it possible to connect with like similarly minded music people, or, youknow, like for me, in my context, like maybe dance music then electronic, as Igot into. Over the internet, you know, through like, you know, social media, etcetera, like what's gonna be interesting is seeing how people are going to notonly be able to connect with so minded people, but create their own worldstogether.

Matt Medved: And I think thatthat's gonna be really interesting around some of these more like nicheinterest, passion points, subcultures, cetera. I think there's gonna be somereally interesting potential for education and access to education anddeveloping countries. You know, like once, you know, it's like being able tolike, Have like virtual classrooms in the, like obviously we'll take a lot ofdistribution and technology that we're not anywhere near yet, but you know,similar to how the mobile phone is now, like pretty ubiquitous at its mostbasic form.

Matt Medved: Eventually we're gonnaget to a place where I think access to these virtual worlds will be, will bethere, but it's a long ways off. Yeah.  

Mike Townsend: When you created nftnow and how you think about it today? Is it, is there a reference point? Isthere other, is there another Corolla, corollary or like type of mediapublication you're trying to replicate and then do so in the, in the new worldof NFTs, is there like a model?

Matt Medved: Yeah. It's a greatquestion. So what I always say is, you know we, we founded nft now to solve aproblem that we were facing ourselves, which was access to like credibleresources in the NFT space. I remember when, when we were, when myself and mytwo co-founders Alejandro and Sam were getting were kind of going down therabbit hole The, the climate back then was characterized by, you know, this waskind of like late 20, 20.

Matt Medved: We founded the nft nowcounts in, in January, 2021. And you know, it was a lot of platforms like outthere that were like promoting their own drops and like these like talking headinfluencers, like on Twitter, pretty much chilling their own bags, you know?And it's like, we're like, where is like the credible information at.

Matt Medved: Where's the billboardof NFTs. Where's the complex, those are a couple ones that we think about.Obviously I have a history working with billboard I've been there, you know, solike I think about it, but it's less about their model and it's more about whatthey represent, like credible authoritative interesting like storytelling.

Matt Medved: And then I think kindof coupling that with, with like Web3 innovation. So the last thing that wewant nft now to be is just a traditional web two media company covering NFTs.So our mission is to empower the creators of culture and to help bring NFTsfrom niche to mainstream. So the second part is important because we also haveto meet the masses where they are.

Matt Medved: So that is why, forexample, like we had to, we started by like building on Instagram and Twitter anda website and YouTube, and like, you know, the podcast and these web two, theseweb two, you know, platforms because at the end of the day, like we didn'twanna preach the choir. We wanted to help convert the masses and we have to gowhere they are.

Matt Medved: I think that Web3gives a really interesting opportunity for media in the sense that like, for solong, like media has relied on these like weak ties at the top of the funnel.You know, like I talked about building audience as a means to the end, toindirectly, you know, like indirect to indirectly monetize as like, you know,as a middleman for brands and all that.

Matt Medved: And, and so we reallywant up to pioneer a community centric media model, and you. Where people haveownership. And we realign incentives because I think a lot of right now, a lotof people are they're loyal to the headline and not to the publisher. Right?Like it doesn't matter who it is, you know, it's like in your feed or whatever,like, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to distinguish.

Matt Medved: There's no realloyalty. There's no incentive for you to support. You know, the New York timesover the Washington post or whatever. And I think that like Web3 has like somereally interesting opportunities to, to kind of explore that. And so we'reworking on some cool things and you know, I, I, I think at the end of the day,you know, we, we really wanna be That, that sort of onboard ramp for themainstream market.

Matt Medved: And that's why if yougo on nft now.com, you'll see, there's a lot of educational resources andguides and what, how tos and the like, and what you won't see on nft now, dotcom are programmatic advertisements because we don't, we don't, we wanna leavethat in web two. Like we don't wanna be optimizing for clicks to serveadvertisers.

Matt Medved: You know, like I thinkthat's an outdated and antiquated business model. So trying to, you know, buildthe web future.  

Mike Townsend: And what, what is thecurrent business model?  

Matt Medved: Right now revenuelargely comes through events and partnerships. Gotcha. But we have we're goingto be, you know, there's, there's a membership pass on the horizon in terms ofNFTs and, and much more as well.

Matt Medved: So we're reallyexcited to kind of come into come into full, you know, kind of blossom as, asit pertains to sort of like the Web3 elements that, that we're gonna be addingto the, to the business.  

Mike Townsend: Do you see a, a, a,maybe a predictable trajectory of similar to how. Crypto based protocols havegone with this, you know, proverbial end zone of being like a Dow where itstarted as a centralized LLC project, they build the project, they raise moneyinvestors or retail investors, whoever.

Mike Townsend: And then they're buildingthe protocol with the initial, with the, with the plans to dissolve the LLCthat created the protocol in the first place. So this thing kind of lives andbreathes on its own people vote. And there's like kind of a, a collectivemechanism is do you see a similar pattern? that could be re reproduced formedia organizations.

Matt Medved: I think we'll see somethat. You know, like, I think we'll see some especially ones that come fromlike, like Web3 native mm-hmm I do think that many will be sort of like a, likemore of like a progressive decentralization model, like where it's you know,because to some degree, I think a lot of editorial publications.

Matt Medved: Still, still want toretain control of their newsroom in the sense of like, what is our voice? Whatdo we cover? What are our values? You know, et cetera. And, and aren'tnecessarily ready to just like, turn that over to the community in a, in afully decentralized manner. But there will be some that do I'm.

Matt Medved: Sure. And I think therewill also be many that that find ways to still have their, their community havea say in things while not like necessarily giving up like. You know, autonomyof the, of the newsroom. It's something we've thought a lot about too, as youknow, we think about the nft now community and being able to like, empower themto have a say in, in certain like content series and, and things that we'recovering.

Mike Townsend: Yeah. Yeah, certainly,really. A compelling argument, because I could see software in a marketplace,which you might use for like a compound or Ave. It, it, in and of itself isjust a, a medium to do something right. Exchange, you know, coins or make some,some trade. And, and that works really well. The media enterprise, the mediaendeavor is really distribution of, of quality.

Mike Townsend: It could be whatevercontent you're making videos and written pieces, arguments in certain areas,but they're really like that constant production is, is the media company. Sowhat the key things would be deciding, like, what are we gonna talk about? Howis it, how are we gonna talk about it? And that, that, that seems to be the bigthing.

Mike Townsend: Right? So the northstar, the principles of a media company would be arranging. What are we talkingabout? And what's. What's our angle on it. What's what are we, what are wetrying to, are we trying to be completely non-biased? Are we trying to assert somedirection to society? Mm-hmm which is an interesting, yeah.

Mike Townsend: A combination of like,this is our north star, but also amendable?

Matt Medved: Totally. I think youcan be as a media organization. You know, we, we know there are in the web twoworld, there are right leaning ones. There are left leaning ones. There areones that have like, you know, around certain ideals. And like, I think it's nodifferent there.

Matt Medved: Like, I think as longas you're being, you know, like we've seen, we've seen ones go too far in, incertain directions and the like, but like, you know, I, I think that You can bea mission driven media organization while still being credible. As long asyou're, as long as you, you know, kind of adhere you adhere to your statedvalues and the like, and so it's gonna be really interesting.

Matt Medved: It's gonna be reallyinteresting. You know, especially as we think about the future of tokenizedmedia, it's something that we're really excited about. And you know, I thinkthat and NFTs open up like a really interesting chapter.  

Mike Townsend: Yeah. In some ways itkind of captures. Captures a larger percentage of society's attention away fromclassical politics of, of things we're debating and like mainstream CNN and,and other media organizations to like technology and future digital debates,which are mm-hmm in some ways more interesting.

Mike Townsend: I mean, not to say theothers aren't important, but they're like, they're almost different, differentlayers to them. It's like, you know, there's certain debates. I'm sure that'llbe like, there'll be politics of the digital world, which are interesting tothink about how that'll shape out.  

Matt Medved: Yeah, definitely. Andthinking about like how those, like, you know, how that's expressed, right?

Matt Medved: Yeah. And and, and onwhat mediums and, and all that. And it's, it's been, it's a fascinating time,like you said, it it's is that earlier it's it's it's let it never be said thatwe don't live in interesting times, right?

Mike Townsend: Yeah, totally. Arethere any particular people, blogs, Twitter, or YouTube books, things thatstrike you as things that you've read or, or consumed that really kind ofshaped your worldview or narrative.  

Matt Medved: That's a really greatquestion. I've been so like tunnel vision, like on on nft now. So I would haveto of course say like highly recommend if you're interested in NFTs, you know,following what we're doing over there.

Matt Medved: You know, nft now andall socials and nft now.com in terms of like books and the, like the first onethat popped to my head The Social Organism by Oliver Luckett and Oliver's afriend as well. It's a really interesting in that it, it, you know, it waswritten prior to, you know, Really like Web3s rise, but I think it's it'sprinciples in terms of understanding how social media networks have like kindof proliferated and the way that like memes and, and me medic sort of likelanguage.

Matt Medved: So almost mimics likea biological organism. Like I think there's a lot. That can be gleaned from itand then applied in like a Web3 context. I, I also think I'm actually reading abook right now called The Organized Mind. Let me see who it's by Daniel Levitinand he's a neuroscientist.

Matt Medved: And part of that is Ithink all of us in the crypto NFT Web3 space, like we all deal with informationover. It's just a nature. It comes with the territory. Like this is a 24 7space. It's always on it. Doesn't close, you know, for the weekend, it doesn'tclose for holidays. And often, you know, it it's things happen so fast.

Matt Medved: I always say in Web3,like weeks or months and months or years, and it can be really overwhelming. Itcan be really exciting, but it can also be really overwhelming. And so I'vefound that book helpful just in terms of principles around like really kind ofensuring like that you can stay focused that.

Matt Medved: That you're dealingwith that information overload in a, in a productive way. Just like, you know,the idea like, like our brains were never meant were, were never meant forthis. And so they're, they're all adapting as, as we go. So those are two booksthat, that come to mind. You know, I, I, I think that one other I'll say is.

Matt Medved: If you don't followhim on Twitter already, I'm, I'm a big fan of punk 6, 5 29. Who's been a reallykind of an active voice specialty for decentralization and the open metaversein, in the NFT context. And you know, he has some really incredible Twitterthreads that speak to like the importance of the decentralization and what he'sbuilding in the open verse there.

Matt Medved: I have. Likeaffiliation with him other than like, we follow each other and I respect himand I respect what he's building. But he would be a, a good follow, you know,after you've, after you've followed nft now and, and, and us as well. So  

Mike Townsend: Totally Matt, this isso fun. Congrats on everything you're doing.

Mike Townsend: I can tell you'resuper excited about it, which is awesome to see. And I hope you guys keepcrushing, stay focused.  

Matt Medved: Yeah, no, thank youfor having me really enjoyed the conversation and yeah, appreciate it. I thinkthat there, we there's a lot to be excited for on the horizon. Yeah. Across,across the, across the board, you know, from, from every aspect of Web3 and youknow, I'm, I'm Hyper-focused on NFTs, but I, I think that these, these areasare gonna continue to overlap and, and create value in, in interesting waystogether.

Matt Medved: So.  

Mike Townsend: Totally. All rightbrother.  

Matt Medved: Awesome, man.

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